Pope Leo XIV and President Trump have been engaging in a war of words. Like many political figures before him, President Trump is severely underestimating Leo. No, he does not command any divisions. But he does have the oldest existing “bully pulpit”.
I agree with Leo in this. The war against Iran is not a just war, as I have pointed out in detail. War is destruction and death. It should be a last resort, not just one more arrow in a foreign policy quiver.
That doesn’t imply that Trump is entirely wrong. Leo is in a long line of popes that have declined to condemn even the most murderous, reprehensible of regimes. It was true of Pius XII with respect to Hitler. It was true of John Paul II with respect to China. They have routinely prioritized diplomatic access over moral clarity. I try to refrain from psychoanalyzing anyone but I think popes see themselves as “playing a long game”. That’s true but I don’t believe that this particular game is in the Church’s favor. When the Church condemns some forms of state violence while remaining silent or muted on others, it inevitably appears to be taking sides. That erodes the very moral authority on which its influence depends.
The president is thinking in news cycles while the pope thinks in centuries. As in virtually all such exchanges in the last century or so, they are talking past one another.
I think Bishop Massa had a good response…
““For over a thousand years, the Catholic Church has taught just war theory and it is that long tradition the Holy Father carefully references in his comments on war. A constant tenet of that thousand-year tradition is a nation can only legitimately take up the sword ‘in self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed’ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 2308). That is, to be a just war it must be a defense against another who actively wages war, which is what the Holy Father actually said: ‘He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war.’”
Much of MAGA already thinks Trump is much the same as Jesus anyway. Wonder how many times a day Drew faces Mar-a-Lago and prays?
Steve
“When Pope Leo XIV speaks as supreme pastor of the universal Church, he is not merely offering opinions on theology, he is preaching the Gospel and exercising his ministry as the Vicar of Christ. The consistent teaching of the Church is insistent that all people of good will must pray and work toward lasting peace while avoiding the evils and injustices that accompany all wars.”
“War is destruction and death.”
So is incineration by nuke. And many a war throughout history has been fought over the economic and militarily strategic consequences of control over strategic materials and their transport. Its great to be on the side of the angels while sipping brandy in the faculty lounge. But reality cannot be dismissed without incurring grave costs.
As for the Pope. He’s entitled to whatever opinion he has. But he ought to keep to Poping. I, for one, have no more use for his opinions on this matter than I do for some Hollywood type blathering on at the Oscars, or for the paid shills on CNN for that matter.
I am pretty sure you have no grounding in faith and religion because if you did you would know that calling for peace and decrying war is part of Poping. The Pope, being much better grounded in just war theory than you or Vance knows this war does not meet the requirements for a just war. Personally, I think it is Vance, Trump and GOP leaders who should just ignore the Pope as they are, not many of them, really people of faith anyway.
Steve
Really,,Steve? No, I have no real grounding in religion. But I am very aware of Pope’s activities throughout the ages. Up your game.
You missed my point. The Pope may find this or other wars unjustified. So may you and Dave. That’s fine, you are entitled. I live in the real world where inaction in the face of certain regimes can result in “destruction and death” orders of magnitude greater than actions to stop them. I find inaction immoral. Iran and its proxies are responsible for the death, torture and disfigurement of thousands of foreign citizens and tens of thousands of its own. And they were just getting started.
Argue if you must for your morality contained in pieces of paper to be adjudicated in courts, except for the Iranians real actions. “Be the better man” is inoperable in the real world. I hold no brief for the Israelis. But I do for the US. Iran had to be dealt with, whether any of us liked it or not.
I’m curious about something, Drew. What will you think if the war against Iran ends with Iran’s present regime still in power, still oppressing Iran’s people, and still in possession of its near-weapons-grade enriched uranium?
If Trump says it’s a win. It’s a win. Game over.
I will be glad to leave my Iranian bomb shelter, and the thought of an Iranian invasion is terrifying.
Doing good has no end. We should teach China and Russia a lesson next.
Drew- You live in a fantasy world where this time will be different. The current reasoning for this war is little different than was used for past wars since and including Vietnam. We know how they all ended and the costs we paid.
I guess it should be pointed out that the US and Israel are responsible for the death, torture and disfigurement of many more thousands in the ME than Iran. Roughly 10,000 US soldiers died in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq, somewhere between 150k-500k were killed and who knows how many disfigured and there were no WMDs and no evidence of them being built it was an elective war that never should have happened. The Shah whom we helped put in power killed and tortured thousands of Iranians, though probably a lot fewer than the current regime. Israel, when it “mows the grass” makes it a point to kill about 10-15 times more Gazans than people who die or are injured in Hamas/Hezbollah attacks. Roughly 200,000 died in Afghanistan. Personally, though I think Dave disagrees, I think our initial response against Afghanistan was justified so some of those deaths are also. However, we spent 20 years there killing a lot more people trying to turn Afghanistan into Sweden, which was never going to happen.
Nowhere have I talked about being a “better man”. I did note, since you didnt seem aware, that Popes commenting on wars and almost always pushing for peace is the norm. It’s Pope 101. He was sticking to Poping as it’s been done in the last 100 years. During WW 2 when it was obvious how awful Germany and Japan were Pius still was hesitant about truly condemning them.
So while talking like a tough guy and not like someone who has seriously contemplated, engaged in or studies war, the issue is how do we achieve the end we want and at what cost. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan were we fought for 8-9 years in one and 20 in the other. Look at Iran which has been under sanctions almost continually since 1979. Are they really going to fold after a few weeks of bombing? (Has bombing ever worked before to achieve that kind of end?)
At this point I have to hope I am wrong and Iran will cave, unlike any other country in the ME has behaved or unlike they have behaved for the last 50 years. I have to hope because they now know they can control the strait which they hadn’t really known or tried to do before. At this point the much more likely outcome, I believe based upon past behaviors, is that this goes down as the Netanyahu revenge tour and we dont get much more out of this.
Steve