Who’s Misreading the Room?

After two days of violent and escalating riots in Los Angeles during which an unspecified number of federal agents and LAPD officers were injured and which the LAPD chief characterized the LAPD as being “overwhelmed”, President Trump called in the National Guard to protect federal officers and property. He is being widely criticized as certainly breaking precedent and possibly the law in doing so.

I was deeply saddened by the riots. The demonstrations from which they materialized were clearly very carefully planned, organized, and financed, no doubt by people who were at no risk of being arrested themselves for reasons of their own. The ensuing riots were violent and out-of-control and federal LAPD officers were injured. I have been unable to determine exactly how many.

Throwing Molotov cocktails and waving Mexican and Palestinian flags are probably not the most effective way of demonstrating your bona fides as new residents of the United States. Especially not in a city that is struggling to recover from weeks of wildfires. The innocent will be swept along with the guilty.

What is clear to me from the public statements from officials is that somebody is tone deaf, misreading the room. Is it Trump or Newsom and Bass? Both?

Trump is fomenting riots

Robert Reich, The Guardian
Stephen Collinson, CNN

Newsom and Bass are fomenting riots

Nicole Russell, USA Today
Miranda Devine, New York Post

If I had to make a prediction, it would be that the courts will find that Trump acted illegally in sending in the National Guard but the legal recourse will end there. Public opinion, at least among registered voters, is likely to support Trump—that appears to be what the overnight polls are showing.

One last point. If you don’t like that the president is invoking old and rarely-used laws to justify his actions, have fewer laws granting the president swepping and vaguely-defined authority.

30 comments… add one
  • steve Link

    1) Arrest anyone who engages in violence, including destroying property.

    2) Assume that there is much, much less violence than Trump supporters claim. I also had trouble finding how many police were injured but the largest number I saw was 5.

    3) While Trump and cronies are trying to escalate so they can demonstrate how tough they are, some of the protestors, apparently a pretty tiny percentage, are doing their best to look bad and give Trump what he wants. (You pointed this out.)

    4) Is it kind of bizarre that this is all over ICE grabbing 100 people? The claim is that they want to deport 3000 people a week. This is an incredible amount of time and money being spent to try to deport 100 people, who as far as we know weren’t criminals. You could go to any random large construction site probably anywhere in the country and find 100 illegals. Of course that would likely be in a red state (where most building occurs) so that wont happen.

    5) Why didnt they coordinate or at least notify the LAPD? Maybe there are some leaks and maybe they grad a few less people but it’s likely things get defused better.

    Steve

  • CuriousOnlooker Link

    I am skeptical Trump is “breaking the law”. He invoked — 10 U.S. Code § 12406, which lets him Federalize National Guard to protect ICE agents and Federal property.

    Trump hasn’t invoked the insurrection act, but as Trump referenced, it could be put into play depending on whether he judges there’s an “insurrection”. This is where Hegseth and Bondi come into play. Both don’t have reservations on Trump’s judgement unlike their counterparts in the summer of 2020; indeed I suspect that’s why Hegseth’s nomination was so contested by Democrats.

    As to all of this, a lot of what happens with protests in the next 3.5 years depends on what lessons Trump, Republicans, Democrats, and “protest organizers” learned from 2020.

    The losers in all this is beleagured downtowns in “blue state” cities. They spent a lot of effort in the past 5 years trying to recover from the damage of breakdown in law and order in 2020. And just as full recovery was in sight, looks like they may suffer another “hot summer”. A new breakdown in law and order would give commuters the perfect excuse from “office mandates” ….

  • Drew Link

    Just keeping to the legalities, curious is correct in his citation and its scope. (Title 10). I would go further. I don’t think Trump has the option, I think he has the duty. (steve’s point #1 is rendered moot. The NG can’t arrest protesters, and the local authorities are either overwhelmed or have been instructed to stand down.)

    Minimizing the issue is just weird. Just look at the film footage.

    Which brings me to the political lens, not the legal. The images will be horrible for the supporters of this well funded and organized “fiery, destructive but mostly peaceful (snicker)” rioting. (And can we skip the ruse that this is really about caring for immigrants? This is largely just havoc for havoc’s sake.) Supporters of this, including Newsome and the mayor have misread the national room. Perhaps not the CA room. But Democrats appear to have a special talent these days for dying on the hill for bad people.

  • Jan Link

    Why didnt they coordinate or at least notify the LAPD?

    The LAPD is not cooperating with ICE in helping to hand over criminal illegals or those already having deportation orders. In fact the deep blue democrat run cities are doing everything they can to oppose any policy or EO generated by the Trump Administration. “RESIST” has always been the attitude of the Dems during most Republican administrations. However, their hair has been continuously on fire, being against any and all proposals during the administration of 45/47 – their long term nemesis. I find their divisiveness not only disturbing but also discouraging, as they seem uncaring and unrestrained in how much damage their antics are causing this country.

    I also don’t see authorizing the National Guard to intervene in an escalating riot as an overbearing act. During the Summer of Love BLM riots Trump wanted to send troops in to quell the growing unrest in Portland. He abided by the progressive governor’s denial of such intervention, and the riots continued unabated for a long time. He apparently did not want to make the same mistake, bowing to the progressive whims of Newsom and Bass (2 politicians who showed such bad judgment during last January’s fires), and went around them to inject the law and order needed to help the “overwhelmed” LAPD. Consequently, I don’t believe Trump will lose in court over this call.

  • Jan Link

    Underling a point Drew brought up—-> I think the optics of this protest are awful, and will do more damage to the people protesting than to what is being protested. Firebombing Waymos, police cars, breaking windows of police stations, private businesses, throwing heavy rocks and cinder block at people, flying foreign flags does nothing to endear most to those here illegally.

    I, for one, have advocated for a complete restructuring of our immigration system including processing applications for citizenship faster, allowing more worker permits, giving amnesty to current DACA as starters. But, such reforms will not gain much traction in the midst of ongoing bedlam, violence, and disobedience, mostly initiated and funded by Democrat organizations, progressive Dems, and other marginal groups. These groups are doing a disservice to those trying to come to this country by civil, legal means.

  • steve Link

    I have seen no evidence that police have been told to stand down. They are arresting dozens of people. I dont know if his calling up the NG bypassing state officials but it’s the first time it has happened since 1965 for what is low levels of violence. AS I noted, they only grabbed about 100 illegals. It looks like they were hoping to stir things up so they could send in troops. Note he is now sending in the Marines, which is the kind of thing I am sure than Mattis or any former officer with real experience at a senior level would oppose. It sets an awful precedent. For Trump using the military is just another way to try to express dominance.

    As an aside, I think it whether or not to call up the Guard should essentially always be left up to local officials who will have the best handle on what is really going on, not just watching on TV from thousands of miles away. They will also best know the capabilities of their guard troops. Most guard troops arent really trained in de-escalation as are most police.

    Steve

  • Jan Link

    In a controversial decision, Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass has reportedly instructed the Los Angeles police Department (LAPD) to stand down as violent rioters gather weapons intended for use against Department of Homeland Security (DHS) agents. This directive has sparked significant discussion and concern among residents, law enforcement officials, and political commentators alike.

  • Piercello Link

    I think the theatrical lens is the most useful here.

    Technology has expanded the range of “what we can see” to an astonishing degree. That has had the side effect of insulating most of us from the direct consequences of “what we can see.”

    Which makes it theater. Entertainment.

    The battle for hearts & minds is being fought, rap-battle style, on the theatrical plane. That is where the strategists of both (all) teams are focusing their efforts.

    Make the short-sighted true believers and zealots the public face of the other side, by baiting them into theatrical violence.

    Presumably, “real” things are also being done while the theatrical eyes are elsewhere.

    But not necessarily.

  • steve Link

    Meh. Leaks that disagree with each other on the details. We have now joined the ranks of countries like Syria, China, Russia, most of the Middle East, most of Africa and Latin America where any country that has an authoritarian ruler deploys the military to quell any protests or dissents against the regime. Add in that Trump and his people keep threatening to arrest their political opponents. Just like the authoritarian governments they dont even allow the opposition in to view the places where they take people after making them disappear.

    Steve

  • Piercello Link

    Dave, I thought you might enjoy this comment sourced from elsewhere on the internet:

    “What happens when we apply Chase Hughes’s rules for identifying a Psyop, using the FATE model, to what’s happening in LA?

    FATE = Focus, Authority, Tribe, and Emotion.

    Focus
    * Hijacked attention, repetition, shocking visuals

    Authority
    * Trusted figures, experts, authorities weigh in to support a narrative

    Tribe
    * Polarizing opinions, team vs team, in-tribe or out-tribe

    Emotion
    * Strong triggers, fear, hope, outrage, bare-minimum evidence

    Remember, “Psyop” does not mean “fake,” it means that psychology is being weaponized to drive towards a desired outcome.

    And by those rules, you can also have multiple competing Psyops running at the same time.”

  • Drew Link

    There is a bedrock point here. This all started with ICE attempting to detain and deport (per court order) 40-100 illegals. That should have been a matter between ICE and the illegals

    Politicians and citizens certainly have the right to disagree and assemble/protest. They don’t have the right to interfere, which they did.

    Even with that said, it is the paid and organized hooligans, perhaps 20%, who showed and started causing trouble. And those people don’t really give a damn about the illegals. They just care about causing a scene.

    So the strategy on the left has turned to minimization. Just a few burning cars and defaced federal property you see. Bizarre thinking. In another example, fake or out of date pictures and film are being cited. I have no doubt it happens. But the overwhelming footage is real time. This is not peaceful.

    The NG is warranted. I’m more concerned about Marines. They are a different animal.

    But it’s a battle that has to be faced and won. If not you will have protest for murderers and rapists and the notion that law enforcement should just give up.

  • steve Link

    We have endured thousands of protests since 1965, the last time a POTUS sent in troops without agreement from the state government. Not sending in the Guard did not result in people protesting in favor of murderers. Talking with friends in LA and looking at the numbers of people involved and the small number of injuries I cant imagine any governor calling out the Guard. It’s expensive and disruptive and there is always the concern that inexperienced troops overreact.

    However, note that the right are underplaying the deployment of Marines. What are they going to do? Is it now the norm to use troops on US soil at the whim of POTUS for no apparent reason? (Most people here were never in the military so maybe they assume all military have police skills, but they dont. Remember that Shinseki wanted to deploy a large number of military police in Iraq as he knew they had a different skillset that would be needed to deal with non-military issues. He was denied those military police and that was a factor leading to our failed occupation.)

    Steve

  • Drew Link

    They are looting now, Steve. Jordan’s and Adidas shoes. A sushi restaurant. A jewelry store……etc. no doubt more to come.

    Nothing says I care about immigrants and am protesting ICE like looting

    And nothing says the locals have it under control like looting. And now we have Maxine Waters telling us the protests are peaceful. Peaceful looting you see.

    This minimization strategy isn’t going to fly.

  • Jan Link

    If this were a democrat administration, attempting to address a growing riot event by sending in the National Guard or local Marines, I think people like Steve would see additional help in a more positive light. Monday night the violence was ratcheted down once reinforcements were rolled in. Looting and window breaking continued, but now with the LAPD getting involved. IMO, Authorizing the National Guard was the right decision to make in lieu of the flaccid leadership already demonstrated by it’s democrat mayor and governor.

  • TastyBits Link

    NEWSFLASH: Marines were sent to the 1992 LA riots.

  • steve Link

    I will always object to deploying active duty troops unless it’s truly a crisis regardless of who is in office. I think we not that uncommonly deploy the NG so I am not objecting to that per se but rather that the decision should be made by people more local to the action as they can better assess the need and will know the capability of their guard troops. Not all troops are equal.

    Drew- They should arrest the looters. AFAICT neither the guard nor the Marines have the authority to arrest people. Interesting that they all those guard troops and Marines now and we still have looting.

    TB- In 1992 people were killed, there was lots more and widespread violence. The governor and mayor asked fro troops.

    Steve

  • Andy Link

    Despite the rhetoric attempting to make this into some major crisis, I think this will be forgotten in a month or less.

    It’s a microcosm of online discourse – action, reactions, and counter-reaction. Only the douchebag activists and extremists vying for online “street” cred win. The rest of us lose.

  • steve Link

    People are posting maps of the area involved and its about 4-6 city blocks.

    Steve

  • Steve:

    Do you mean the protests are confined to a small area, the riots are confined to a small area, or both?

  • Drew Link

    So what’s your limit on looting, burning cars, throwing rocks at cops and defacing property, Steve?

    8 blocks? 10? Less than that and it’s all peaceful and acceptable? Looted shop owners might beg to differ.

    They are in Santa Ana now. And AZ and Chicago. No doubt we haven’t seen the last.

  • Drew Link

    No, what’s interesting is that the LAPD obviously feels the NG has their back. And so the LAPD has sprung into action, and are arresting looters.

    The Marines make me queasy. Different animals.

  • steve Link

    David- Per the people from LA posting on it I think both.

    Drew- Beats me. As I keep saying I would leave it up to local people who have a better idea of what is going on, the capabilities of local law enforcement and the capabilities of their own National Guard to determine when to call in help. California deployed the Guard in 2020 during the Floyd protests and also in 1992 when they also asked for troops. So they have shown a willingness to use them. Also, they had already arrested, by my rough count, over 100 people before any Guard showed up.

    What’s your limit. Since you were never in the military please remember that it’s disruptive for the Guard to get called up for individual guard members. Its expensive. They are there to be used but not abused. Also bear in mind that they have been fairly heavily used for out of the country deployments since 2001.

    Steve

  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: Public opinion, at least among registered voters, is likely to support Trump—that appears to be what the overnight polls are showing.

    But the people like fascism strong authority.

    They burned down the Reichstag! We need forceful leadership! Make Germany America Great Again!

  • Zachriel Link

    steve: I also had trouble finding how many police were injured but the largest number I saw was 5.

    Along with a number of journalists.

    steve: Of course that would likely be in a red state (where most building occurs) so that wont happen.

    Which suggests the actual motive isn’t rounding up immigrants, but demonstrating dominance over Trump’s perceived enemies.

    CuriousOnlooker: He invoked — 10 U.S. Code § 12406, which lets him Federalize National Guard to protect ICE agents and Federal property.

    It’s not clear how the courts will rule, which generally defer to the president, but the law intends to put the governor in charge of a state’s National Guard, except in extenuating conditions. Like always, Trump declares an emergency, while the courts don’t want to override that declaration no matter how pretextual it might be.

    Drew: I don’t think Trump has the option, I think he has the duty.

    No. That duty generally falls to the governor. California has used the National Guard in the past, and there is no evidence they wouldn’t use them again. That Trump called in the Marines is strong evidence this is about dominance over perceived enemies.

    Drew: But Democrats appear to have a special talent these days for dying on the hill for bad people.

    Such is the nature of seeking justice. Start with the Great Writ, which applies to the high and mighty, but also to the lowliest person who {allegedly} committed the most of heinous crimes.

    Jan: I also don’t see authorizing the National Guard to intervene in an escalating riot as an overbearing act.

    Overriding the governor is an extraordinary act, not seen since the National Guard was federalized to protect protesters in 1965. Now, Trump has said protesters should face “very heavy force”. Furthermore, by federalizing the National Guard under Title 10, the Guard can no longer be used for law enforcement.

  • Drew Link

    A spokesperson for Defend the LAPD, which presents itself as a grassroots club for thousands of LA cops and their supporters, told the Daily Mail that officers of all ranks appreciate the backup of Trump’s National Guard deployment.

    ‘Everyone supports all the help they can get,’ said the spokesperson.

    ‘We need the help from other agencies, because we can’t handle it. Our asses are being handed to us on a platter.’

    While Gov Newsom says the National Guard are not needed and part of Trump’s ‘manufactured’ crisis, the spokesperson said this was ‘not true,’ and that extra boots helped keep the streets safe.

    ‘They’re here because we don’t have enough personnel, after all the back door defunding they have done for years,’ said the spokesperson.

    In the channel, officers, commanders and other members are able to post their concerns about events in a city of nearly 4 million people that’s become the epicenter of Trump’s controversial immigration crackdown.

    In the posts, which we could not independently verify, members slammed Mayor Bass for ‘unprecedented political interference’ this week by assuming direct control of LAPD forces and preventing cops from bailing out federal immigration agents.

  • Drew Link

    No, Zach.

    The President has a duty to uphold the law. The LAPD were overwhelmed. They were not dealing with protesters attacking ICE, nor were they arresting looters. Newsom failed in his duty. So Trump provided the NG to have the LAPD’s backs. And Newsom lied about not speaking to Trump before the NG was ordered in. They have the phone records you know.

    As an empirical fact the LAPD began dealing with looters. And Trump’s action is a big hit with the LAPD.

  • Drew Link

    No, Zach.

    The President has a duty to uphold the law. The LAPD were overwhelmed. They were not dealing with protesters attacking ICE, nor were they arresting looters. Newsom failed in his duty. So Trump provided the NG to have the LAPD’s backs.

    As an empirical fact the LAPD began dealing with looters. And Trump’s action is a big hit with the LAPD.

  • Zachriel Link

    Drew: ‘We need the help from other agencies, because we can’t handle it. Our asses are being handed to us on a platter.’

    Did the LAPD request the National Guard? If not, then it’s just chatter.

    Drew: The LAPD were overwhelmed.

    Did the LAPD request the National Guard? If not, then it’s an abuse of power. And the Marines are clearly meant as a provocation.

    Drew: And Newsom lied about not speaking to Trump before the NG was ordered in.

    That’s false. On June 10, Trump said he spoke to Newsom “a day ago”. In fact, as Newsom had already publicly acknowledged, they had spoken three days previously, but did not speak “a day ago”. As Newsom said, “Trump doesn’t even know what day it is.” Even a modicum of skepticism would have revealed the truth. It’s right there in Trump’s own post.

    Drew: The President has a duty to uphold the law.

    The US is a federal system, and states are responsible for most crime enforcement. There are also laws in place regarding how the National Guard operates, which is through the governor of the state. As already noted, and as other authoritarians have historically done, Trump calls it an “emergency” in order to acquire power. It has nothing to do with the particulars, which are just pretext.

  • steve Link

    Again, multiple news sources documented that the police were arresting dozens of people at a time well before the Guard arrived. It’s an empirical fact and matter of public record that they have been making arrests all along.

    I have no doubt the police appreciate the help. I bet they would like to have help every time there are protests. Means less work for them.

    Does POTUS have a duty? Does POTUS have a better way of determining what is going on than local sources? From now on does POTUS override the opinion of locals? Should he limit that to calling up the guard? Say a state, in his opinion, is spending too much money. Does he have a duty to dictate their budget? Anyway, maybe, just maybe you might have sort of an argument but calling in the Marines undercuts everything.

    Steve

  • Andy Link

    The irony is that by activating the Guard in Title 10 status, it significantly limits what they can actually do.

    It will be a similar issue with the Marines.

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