I found this round table at Politico of a group of “coupologists”, i.e. scholars who study coups d’état, engaging and informative, particularly the historical references. As you might expect they did not settle on a consensus view. Descriptions they used include:
- Riot
- Coup
- Insurrection
- autogolpe
All agreed that whatever happened included a riot. Here are some sample snippets:
Ryan McMaken: Well, my view is that it is a riot in the sense that it’s difficult to attribute any particular goal to the people who were actually involved at the Capitol. I mean, certainly last I checked, 11 people were charged with seditious conspiracy. So that would imply that at least some people involved had some particular goal in mind.
But I just don’t think there was enough critical support from inside the regime to support the idea that it was actually a coup. In fact, the data coming out from the January 6 panel suggests that Trump was delusional if he thought he had any sort of meaningful support outside of himself. I mean, even his own family members seemed unenthusiastic. It was actually Mike Pence who was communicating with the military and they were taking orders from the vice president, not even the president. Trump did not really attempt to call in any sort of real support from the coercive arms of the government. If you can’t count on the police, if you can’t count on the military to provide some kind of support or at least some other elite group that has real power within the regime, then that strikes me as something that’s not a coup.
or
Matthew Cleary: I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. Certainly, riot is an easy way to describe it. Insurrection is better, and I think insurrection would be my preferred term for it. And I agree with Ryan that “coup†is a little too strong, and there are some important differences between what happened on January 6th, on the one hand, and your typical Latin American coup on the other hand. The most important being the lack of participation of any military or police forces of the state. In fact, Trump the man, the person, could not or did not count on the support of any institutional actors, so far as I know. Not the Supreme Court, not the Congress as a whole, although certainly he has some supporters in Congress, not other important institutions of the state.
The classic definition of a coup is the use of one part of the state apparatus to seize power of the state apparatus overall, and Trump just didn’t have that.
I have been extremely circumspect in my diction in discussing the events of the day, preferring the very neutral “breach” over other characterizations for the simple reason that it is not libelous. Given the multiple convictions to date I think it’s fair to say there was a riot.
I’m not sure how you’d go about disaggregating technical decisions about what happened from emotional or political ones.
A photo op and a very ripe political op.
All you had to do was watch it to see the riot. Like most riots the number of people engaging in violence was a minority but its still a riot.
Steve
Are you pretty sure, what you were spoon fed wasn’t edited?
Did it include video of Ashli Babbitt’s death?
Like in so many other countries around the world, hundreds of people are being legally “disappeared” for their participation in political activity disapproved by government policing agencies.
Until they target you, gore your ox, it’s easy to smile and pretend that it never could be you, but, when it is you, you will be beyond help, persona non grata, alone.
Yup, even the right wing channels showed the violence besides all fo the private sources and the police reports of all the people injured. The ED program directors also verified the increase in activity. Who has been “disappeared” in the US?
Steve
There remain thousands of hours of unreleased video filmed of the event, mostly held in check by the congressional establishment. A documentary with newly seen footage, however, produced by Epoch TV shows another side to J6 which is more damning for the Capitol Police than it is for the protesters who were sprayed with flash grenades, rubber bullets, pushed off ledges when trying to plant an American flag, and beaten with police batons – one Capitol police woman repeatedly hit an unconscious woman on the ground who died (Roxanne Boyland). Her death was erroneously said to be from drugs.
To answer the multiple choice question in the original post I would say none of the above. Rather, it was a certification protest gone askew, turning into a mismanaged riot that was unnecessarily traumatized by the Capitol police’s brutal counter-offensive reactions, resulting in the unnecessary deaths of five protesters.
Heh. So, it wasn’t an attempted coup unless Trump was delusional. Well, then.
Insurrection works for describing the crowd dynamic.
Trump Tweets during “riot” (10m34s)
Hmm. Comment disappeared.
When you are imprisoned in a jurisdiction a thousand miles from home, held on no bail, or excessive bail, your world falls apart.
It’s probably hard to imagine the magnitude of the situation if one is financially independent.
The justice department has charged over 700 people in regards to the events of January 6th, they estimate 2,000-2,500 people were illegally in the Capitol that day.
The estimate is 20,000 hours of video available for investigators to sift through for more charges,
Indicating a marathon hunt for whomever served in the chain of command over the force of 2,500 insurrectionists.
The plot exists only in the imagination, but for those whose faces are on the tape, they are finding out prosecutor’s imagination is the only reality that matters.
Plenty will turn state’s evidence to salvage what they can of their lives.
Grey Shambler: When you are imprisoned in a jurisdiction a thousand miles from home, held on no bail, or excessive bail, your world falls apart.
Each of the accused was provided a court hearing. The presumption under the Bail Reform Act, 18 U.S. Code § 3142, is pretrial release. To hold someone before trial, beyond probable cause of a criminal act, the government has to provide evidence to the court that the defendant is either a risk to the public, a flight risk, or a risk to the judicial process (such as destroying evidence or intimidating witnesses).
All defendants have been provided hearings in court. The vast majority of people were granted pretrial release. Those that are held are being held pursuant to court order.
Having “The Talk†With Trump Supporters About The Police
Z: Hmm. Comment disappeared.
Ah, there it is! Thanks!
Gray, I have found the gestapo-like tracking down of J6 participants, the ransacking of their homes, terrorizing/bankrupting their families, then incarcerating them in inhumane conditions without access to due process, hard to grasp as being acceptable in our “free†country. Under this Democrat party regime, though, it has become commonplace for large numbers of heavily armed police to caravan to people’s homes, threatening them and their families by surprise, usually early morning raids. We’ve seen this in a myriad of cases involving primarily political opponents of democrats – more recently the invasion of the ex-president’s home. Nonetheless, this type of authoritarianism seems to be supported by most of our power brokers and those presently in charge of the government. It’s really become unnerving to witness how rapidly we have fallen into disrepair and disgrace, in disrespecting the rights and just treatment of those not following the democratically-approved government script.
Jan: I have found the gestapo-like tracking down of J6 participants, the ransacking of their homes, terrorizing/bankrupting their families, then incarcerating them in inhumane conditions without access to due process, hard to grasp as being acceptable in our “free†country.
Please be specific. What is Gestapo-like about tracking down people who are accused of having broken the law? Or going to court for search warrants based on probable cause. What inhumane conditions? Who specifically has been denied due process?
Jan: We’ve seen this in a myriad of cases involving primarily political opponents of democrats
Have you actually looked at the prison population in America?
https://southerncoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Black-men-in-prison-300×208-1.jpg
1st invasion of the capital in over 100 years. Doesnt seem trivial. I am not really impressed by the claims that there are secret videos somewhere that will clear the rioters. Everyone carries a smartphone now. Everything goes caught on camera. While i am sure there were a few over zealous police, just like with BLM, especially the day they cleared things for Trump’s photo op, there are tons of videos showing the rioters attacking the police. Others with them destroying property (or stealing it) inside the building.
Gestapo? Really? If I broke into your house and stole some stuff the police would be considered gestapo if they investigated it or even prosecuted? If I go punch a cop it would gestapo like if the police investigated or even, gasp, put me in jail?
Steve
“ Gestapo? Really? If I broke into your house and stole some stuff the police would be considered gestapo if they investigated it or even prosecuted? If I go punch a cop it would gestapo like if the police investigated or even, gasp, put me in jail?â€
I would expect the police to arrest and read you your rights – not beat you up without mercy (like was done to Roseanne Boyland), or shot and killed being unarmed or given a warning about a gun (like was done to Ashlee Babbit). This would apply if you robbed someone or punched a cop. I would add putting you in solitary confinement, for an indefinite amount of time, without being charged for your offense, disallowing you from seeing your family, lawyer, even refusing you medical treatment (like what has been done to J6 prisoners) is simply horrendous and equivalent to gestapo-like acts and treatment.
Jan: Rosanne Boyland
Boyland was part of a violent mob, trampled while carrying a “Don’t Tread on Me” flag. The medical examiner determined her cause of death as “acute amphetamine intoxication.”
Jan: Ashlee Babbit
Ashli Babbitt was part of a violent mob threatening members of Congress and shouting for the hanging of the Vice President. She was the tip of the mob and attempted to breach the last barrier to the Speaker’s Lobby leading to the House Chamber where members of Congress were sheltering from the mob.
Jan: I would add putting you in solitary confinement, for an indefinite amount of time, without being charged for your offense, disallowing you from seeing your family, lawyer, even refusing you medical treatment (like what has been done to J6 prisoners) is simply horrendous and equivalent to gestapo-like acts and treatment.
Please be specific, so we can see if your claim can withstand scrutiny.
Please link to the video of Boyland being beaten to death by police. We have the video of Babbitt trying to break in.
Since your claim is that all of the J6 people are being held in solitary I am sure you have evidence fo that.
Steve
Here I will go first. Some fo the Jan 6 groups are being kept in their own call back, together as a group. They were suffering so badly at first but now they get organic food including wild caught tuna, no pesticides. Oh, the abuse.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2022/01/05/the-january-sixers-have-their-own-unit-at-the-dc-jail-heres-what-life-is-like-inside/
Steve
https://offensively-patriotic.com/2022/06/20/bonnie-nichols-speaks-out-against-the-j6-dc-gulag-and-lack-of-due-process-for-husband-prisoners/
There are various pieces like this one, however they seem to be stuffed way back in any internet searches done – a trick tech has in suppressing info it doesn’t want easily found (illuminated by the research of Dr. Robert Epstein).
Steve, I know you find comfort and confirmation bias in quoting impersonal stats, deriding people for testifying about their own experiences, labeling them as merely anecdotal and insufficient to be taken seriously. However, few people stand up, separating themselves from the masses to expose unsavory truths. These people don’t comprise a majority, but rather a courageous minority willing to take on the barbs of closed mined know-it-alls. Such a ratio of truth-tellers applies to those recounting the harsh treatment of J6 prisoners in a country that touts it’s high support for human rights – mainly family members and friends pleading for due process and humane treatment for their loved ones.
The same is applicable to big pharma’s troubling vaccines that have maimed or led to the untimely deaths of multitudes, while continuing to spew the false mantra of “safe and effective.†This is in the midst of a growing contingency of physicians warning about the adverse side effects of these gene therapies posing as “vaccines,†along with refuting the tyrannical protocols that did nothing but make lives more miserable. In fact The Great Barrington Declaration, which you, Steve, mocked when it came out early on, is now being vindicated – saying that the guidance of quarantining healthy people, social distancing, universal masking was more detrimental than helpful in easing out of the pandemic. This Declaration has been followed up by an international consortium of physicians and scientists calling for these gene therapies to be removed from the market.
My opinion hasn’t really changed and is still supported by the facts: This was a riot and the breach occurred because of a misjudgment about the level of security required.
If the Capital Police has been more competent and had better security this would have been just another “aggressive†protest and would now be forgotten.
They key for me, therefore, was evidence the Trump administration deliberately prevented better security which would indicate a real conspiracy. That isn’t the case.
jan- Its the same people, a small minority of physicians and scientists making the same claims. Nothing has changed. The GBD proposed things we were already doing or it suggested magic. Stuff no one knew how to do.
They are still doing studies looking at Ivermectin. They still come out showing it does not work to treat covid per se. I think it has become accepted that in areas with Strongyloides (sp?) Ivermectin has value because it will kill the parasite, making it safer to give the steroids that actually reduce mortality. It has numbers and stuff you probably wont like it but it is fairly well done. They enumerate their weaknesses.
Of note there is a trend towards Metformin actually working but they pick it up in secondary numbers so they advocate, correctly, for a primary study. This was a common prob let among the studies thought to show the failed drugs like hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin worked. A surprise finding in an unplanned secondary study group would be found supporting the use of one of these failed drugs so people would proclaim it worked, but the study was not designed to test for that outcome. The subgroups were often small and underpowered. You needed a real, sufficiently powered study designed to study the intended outcome.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2201662
Steve
Jan: Bonnie Nichols Speaks Out Against the Atrocious J6 DC Gulag and Lack of Due Process For Husband, Prisoners
Sounds like he’s in jail. So? How did you think it worked?
Ryan Nichols was denied pretrial release because the court found probable cause that he arrived at the Capitol planning to commit acts of violence, then committed acts of violence against police and encouraged others to do the same. Afterwards, Nichols bragged about what he did and allegedly attempted to destroy evidence. Consequently, the court found that he represents a continuing danger to the community. He can appeal that decision, but it’s unlikely he would win that appeal. That’s called due process.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/defendants/nichols-ryan
The Capitol Police fall directly under the authority of Congress—they don’t report to the executive branch at all. The Capitol Police are what the Congress wants them to be—a bunch of old, fat guys. Why they want that I have no idea.
Fat? Come see our local police.
Steve
steve, the difference is that the minimum age for the Capitol Police is so high—38 IIRC. And there are no health or physical fitness requirements (or, more precisely, such requirements are unenforced).
They are still doing studies looking at Ivermectin. They still come out showing it does not work to treat covid per se
So, countries like Japan, India, S. America and others, who have had great success with HCQ and ivermectin, are lying? Haiti has had a minuscule pnumber of COVID cases and deaths, and attributes this to their treatment of malaria by HCQ – a drug repurposed to treat COVID. But, this must be another inconvenient truth, pushed aside by those who only see gene therapy inoculations as the single pathway to COVID treatment.
Interestingly, I just talked with a COVID-recovered friend who took ivermectin to achieve her recovery. But, according to people like you, these anti virals are useless.
Also, there are a myriad of studies demonstrating positive results using HCQ and ivermectin in the treatment of COVID. In fact, these drugs which have been used for decades (unlike the injections being foisted on us under a EUA with poorly conducted, controversial clinical trials) are considered to have a universal application for many maladies, including cancer. The Brownstone Institute has listed many of these studies (something cited earlier to you).
Its the same people, a small minority of physicians and scientists making the same claims. Nothing has changed.
You’re simply wrong about a “small minority†of physicians/scientists calling for early treatment with these anti virals, who are also calling for completely taking these risky gene therapy injections off the market. In fact the list of those advocating for alternative treatments are literally icons in their fields of medicine. Besides those fearlessly putting their names and professional reputations along side their commentaries and opinions, are the multitudes of doctors who quietly admit their support, but are too intimidated to publicly “come out,†for fear of losing their ability to practice medicine. The censorship and suppression surrounding anyone disagreeing with the COVID narrative is beyond anything I’ve ever seen.
Jan: So, countries like Japan, India, S. America and others, who have had great success with HCQ and ivermectin, are lying?
You are conflating misunderstood reports with scientific evidence. For instance, Kowa Co, a Japanese company, showed that ivermectin has an anti-viral effect, not that it was an effective treatment for COVID. It turns out that the effect is very slight. In developing countries, ivermectin reduces the incidence of parasitical diseases, so people who take ivermectin have a better chance of surviving COVID. None of this is new knowledge. Controlled trials have failed to show efficacy for either drug in the treatment of COVID.