Or at least the Right Blogosphere. I can’t tell you how many posts I’ve read recently whose general message is that “Islam is the enemyâ€. This includes bloggers that I’ve respected and even some I’ve got on my blogroll.
I won’t link to them. The posts aren’t hard to find.
And even more improbably they sometimes include statements like “I have nothing against Muslims†or words to that effect.
This is a violation of reason, logic, charity, sanity, and strategy.
Let me tell you what the meaning of “is†is. If all members of class A are also members of class B and all members of class B are also members of class A then class A is class B. Further, all elements that are members of class A are each, severally, members of class A. That is the meaning of membership.
I don’t care how many circumlocutions or false analogies you resort to or how much specious reasoning you present or how many paranoid assertions you make if “Islam is the enemy†then all Muslims are enemies and that’s that.
I, contrariwise, believe that some proportion (which I hope is relatively small) of Muslims is, indeed, the enemy and that some other Muslims are making the error of sympathizing with them, shielding them, and rationalizing for them. I can’t think of anything more likely to tip Muslims to the dark side by convincing them that the war on terror is a war on Islam than the assertion that “Islam is the enemyâ€.
So, even if it were true, it is a strategic error as well as (as noted above) it is a logical error.
If the political right has settled on the notion that “Islam is the enemy†and the political left has settled on the notion that “Bush is the enemy†(or, by extension, Republicans), we are in terrible trouble.
A soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him but because he loves what is behind him.
I’ve noticed this as well, and it’s very troubling. One argument that I see more often is that there are NO moderate Muslims. It really boggles the mind.
A soldier does not fight because he hates what is in front of him but because he loves what is behind him.
Dave, well said indeed. And I might add that the jihadist fights because they love what they perceive is awaiting them.
Would you please run for office?
Three weeks to election, the polls are scary for the GOP, the Republicans think terrorism is their issue, so their blog minions are trying to ratchet up the hysteria. Last cycle it was gays. Fear motivates the base.
Asking if Islam is the enemy is a legitimate question. In general, Islam today is not accepting of other religions; name one “Islamic” country where other religions are increasing in number. You’ll find worldwide that people who practise other religions in an Islamic environment are often persecuted and frequently emigrate if they can. If you define a moderate as someone who is not al Qaeda then I might agree with you; i.e. there are many moderate Muslims. On the other hand if you define a moderate as someone who is accepting of others and respects others religious beliefs then I think the number decreases quite drastically. While the analogy of our current time to 1930’s Europe may be flawed, the question of Nazi Germany does raise an interesting point. We waged total war against Germany when only 38% of Germans supported the Nazi’s. In many areas, particularly certain areas of Pakistan, support for bin Laden and al Qaeda runs much higher than that. Before anyone keels over, I am not suggesting that al Qaeda represents the same threat as Nazi Germany, the situation is much different. Unfortunately it seems as if many Muslims are in the same position as most Germans were back then; i.e. they may not be enthusiastic supporters of bin Laden, but they are not exactly antagonistic to his ideas either.
Well, Barnie, if it is the enemy, you’re truly fucked.
But of course it’s an idiotic question residing on
Asking if Islam is the enemy is a legitimate question. In general, Islam today is not accepting of other religions;
Bollocks. The Islamic world certainly has some serious issues – ones with a great deal of regional and country variation, but this sort of generalisation is pure uninformed bollocks.
In most of the Islamic world you have personal freedom of worship as an outsider (hint to Barnie, Saudi Arabia stands out for its retrogradeness, not its typicalness), and while conversion is not sanctioned – indeed proslytizing generally either way is generally banned in Muslim countries, although as is the human condition, it tends to get enforced one way. Of course one has to add in colonial sensitivities – of course the shriekers are not at all aware of the, how shall we put it, less than particularly spotless record of European colonials right into the 1950s in terms of religious based discrimination in administration, jobbies and the like, thus leaving some understandable hangovers of sensitivity. Of course Americans always say “but that was ages ago” – to which a local will reply “our living memory.”
In any event, I have no issue with noting parts of the Islamic world have severe to moderate issues with religious freedom (although the compliants often smell of special pleading by Xians with strange ideas about converting the Heathen Mohammedans), I do have a problem with ignorant whanking and gross exageration based on ignorance.
name one “Islamic†country where other religions are increasing in number.
Off the top of my head: Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Morocco, Tunisia.
There, that’s four, counting Dubai and Abu Dhabi seperately. Or three for the whole Emirites.
Going for counting the immigrants/long term residents – for work in the two Emirati cases, for retirement living in the latter two. Named simply because I do a lot of business in them and see the non-Arabo-Muslim pop growth.
The emergence of the Maghreb as a retirement destination merely underlines your ignorant provincial hysteria, sounding rather like the rural rubes who shriek on about the dangerous big cities.
Now, I frankly can’t claim much knowledge of what the religious balance situ in evolutionary terms (change over time) in places like Bangladesh, Malaysia, Mali, Senegal, Guinee-Conakry, Chad, Nigeria, Turkey, etc. but then neither can you, I am sure. Rather typical emotive whanking on by someone thinking superficially and emotively.
You’ll find worldwide that people who practise other religions in an Islamic environment are often persecuted and frequently emigrate if they can.
Broad brush meet Barnie.
You’ll find often on the Internet gross exagerations and over-generalisations from specific cases made by people with only a passing real and effective knowledge of the situ they confidently make definitive statements about.
In the Arab region, there is massive emmigration from the poor (non-oil rich) countries. As it happens by some queer accident – surely of course a coincidence, Xian Arabs get visas to Europe, USA etc at much higher rates than Muslim Arabs do. Of course, the Xian Arabs do have advantages, besides religion: they absolutely dominate the business sector in the Levant, and the private sector in Egypt (and are suprisingly present in the Gulf actually). The visa demander from an Xian background is structurally more likely to meet current developed world criteria for immigration in terms of having resources (capital) and education (Xians are generally much better educated, although I would suspect that if you control for rural versus urban the difference would not be as great).
Now, is there discrimination and communal tensions? Sure, just like even between Palestinians and East Banker Jordanians in Jordan there is severe discrimination between the communities (on both the Muslim and Xian sides). Personally having actually worked in the region over the past decade, I find the hysterical shrieking about discrimination done by provnicial political partisans to be grossly overdone, although very obviously the fact there is varying levels of discrimination plus there are real economic incentives to emmigrate given severely under-performing economies obviously create a clear pattern.
Ignoramuses however going on about emmigration rarely bother to think through the economic motivations, nor the diffrential between who gets the visas.
If you define a moderate as someone who is not al Qaeda then I might agree with you; i.e. there are many moderate Muslims. On the other hand if you define a moderate as someone who is accepting of others and respects others religious beliefs then I think the number decreases quite drastically.
As if your opinion is worth anything here, given you know fuck-all about the Islamic world generally.
In many areas, particularly certain areas of Pakistan, support for bin Laden and al Qaeda runs much higher than that.
Indeed Pakistan is an identifiable problem, focus on the concrete rather than your gross hand-waving distortions based on superficial knowledge. Many areas…..
Lounie, you know virtually nothing about me and display, as always, your prejudice in addition to your trademark hostility. My post was designed to raise questions more than being a treatise on the state of the Islamic world; of which I have never claimed to be an expert. However, I submit that it is you who seem to be lacking in certain knowledge. My wife was born and raised in Samsun, Turkey, as a Christian, and later lived for two years in Saudi Arabia. Her family came to the U.S. to avoid the persecution that they encountered in many aspects of their lives. My neighbors behind me are Palestinian Christians and three doors down are Iranian Christians who came for much the same reasons. Were economic factors involved? Of course, but that is not their main reason for wanting to leave what in each case was their homeland for many generations. Their experience simply does not match what you are stating. You mention that in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Morocco, Tunisia the population of other religions is increasing. I hadn’t heard this and will look into it further.
As for your first sentence…yeah, that’s the problem…lol. You state it is an idiotic question and then go on to agree that the Islamic world has serious issues. Oh yeah, you said there is regional variability…great, who said there wasn’t? The problem is that the people who are defining Islam today are to a large extent the Saudi’s.
Dave, a couple of comments on your post. You state: “I, contrariwise, believe that some proportion (which I hope is relatively small) of Muslims is, indeed, the enemy and that some other Muslims are making the error of sympathizing with them, shielding them, and rationalizing for them.” This makes no sense. First, a “true” Muslim would be highly offended by your statement since you call those commiting crimes, i.e. your “some proportion of Muslims,” Muslim. Don’t you know that by definition, someone who blows up the World Trade Center can’t be a Muslim. This is part of the problem: the unwillingness of a large segment of Muslims to accept the fact that some of their co-religionists have an evil intent.
You also state, “if “Islam is the enemy†then all Muslims are enemies and that’s that.” No that’s not that. There are different strains of Islam and it is mostly the Saudi Wahhabi version that we have a problem with.
Lastly you state, “So, even if it were true, it is a strategic error as well as (as noted above) it is a logical error.” If it is true then it is not something that can or should be hidden. As a democracy we need to discuss it openly and decide how to deal with it.
With all due respect, you miss the far more disturbing aspect of this most recently witnessed in Lebanon. In frequent arguments, I’m challanged, “if the so-called “moderate Muslims” exist, why don’t they stand up and march/agitate for moderate Islam?”, where follows a typical condemnation of them for not “doing enough”, so obviously, they’re “on the side of the jihadists”.
And you see how sick the American political discourse is when the Right cheerleads the mindless destruction of Lebanese infrastructure and the shattering of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, while the mostly pro-Israel Left (like Hilary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Lieberman, Harry Reid, etc) cheers on the IDF every step of the way unquestionably.
Americans in general have a darkening view of Islam. That will only lead to mindless acceptance of collective punishment campaigns like the one in Lebanon and blithe ignorance of the horrific suffering of common Iraqis in the face of criminal incompetence by the US political and military leadership.
Barnie
I know what I see, and that’s quite enough.
My post was designed to raise questions more than being a treatise on the state of the Islamic world; of which I have never claimed to be an expert.
Well, then you might well do framing the questoins properly and not make sweeping pronouncements based on thin knowledge.
When I leave a not about Asia, for example, although I am actually moderately well informed, I am careful not to make pronouncements as I know I am not expert or deeply involved.
So, your backpeddling on ‘not claiming to be an expert’ leaves me unimpressed.
However, I submit that it is you who seem to be lacking in certain knowledge. My wife was born and raised in Samsun, Turkey, as a Christian, and later lived for two years in Saudi Arabia. Her family came to the U.S. to avoid the persecution that they encountered in many aspects of their lives.
KSA is a backwards place, and?
Colour me unimpressed.
My neighbors behind me are Palestinian Christians and three doors down are Iranian Christians who came for much the same reasons. Were economic factors involved? Of course, but that is not their main reason for wanting to leave what in each case was their homeland for many generations.
You give three anectdotes among the dissatisfied, I can double or triple that on anectdotes from people in region who stuck around, and those who are considering leaving.
So where does that get us. You know some of the disgruntled. I know a wide range of people in region, some disgruntled, some not.
All frustrated, like the Muslim inhabitants, with the governments and economies, and generally society, many wanting to emmigrate.
A commonality.
So, the point remains, rather than focusing solely on the discrimination factor, one has to look at the larger picture. Of course emmigrants often cite in particular social discrimination, it is generally the dissatisified who emmigrate after all and of course visas are not generally obtainable by focusing on the economic factors, but discrimination – incentives to focus on certain issues; emmigrant Muslim Berbers from the Maghreb often give the impression of discriminatoin that is grossly exagerated, for example.
Reality is more complicated, and simple mindedly lapping up one side of the story is idiotic.
Their experience simply does not match what you are stating.
No, certainly it does. My statement was a broad characterisation, not an indication that no one is discriminated against, etc. etc.
You mention that in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Morocco, Tunisia the population of other religions is increasing. I hadn’t heard this and will look into it further.
It’s easy enough, mate, and
As for your first sentence…yeah, that’s the problem…lol. You state it is an idiotic question and then go on to agree that the Islamic world has serious issues. Oh yeah, you said there is regional variability…great, who said there wasn’t? The problem is that the people who are defining Islam today are to a large extent the Saudi’s.
It’s an idiotic questoin because if bloody well over-generalises and mistakes local particularities – esp. Middle East proper – for all Islamic world. As to your last statement, well again, what the fuck do you actually know? You make these kind of broad sweeping statements, but you know no Arabic, have little direct contact with the region or Muslims outside the Middle East (the majority by the way, do try to keep that in mind).
Certainly Wahhabite thought has become influential. It’s a gross exageration to say they are “defining” Islam. Gross and ill informed, but it does play into their game, giving them more credit than they deserve.