The Last Debate (Updated)

As is my custom I did not watch the last debate between the presidential candidates last night. The consensus seems to be that the president won:

Thanks to an aggressive performance and a couple of zingers, a plurality of debate watchers questioned in a national survey say that the president won his final faceoff with Republican nominee Mitt Romney.

But a CNN/ORC International poll conducted right after Monday night’s faceoff here at Lynn University in south Florida also indicates that the debate may be a draw when it comes to whether it will affect the choice of voters who watched the showdown, and Romney held his own with the president on the commander-in-chief test.

And according to the survey, unlike previous debates, there was a big gender gap, with women responding much more favorably to Obama’s performance and men giving a small advantage to Romney.

Partisans of each side are claiming that their preferred candidate trounced his opponent. The president’s fans are making much of this exchange:

President Obama told Mitt Romney that he was out of touch on his criticism of the current military structure, at the foreign policy debate.

“But I think Gov. Romney maybe hasn’t spent enough time looking at how our military works,” said Obama. “You mention the Navy, and how we have fewer ships than 1916. We also have fewer horses and bayonets, because the nature of our military has changed. We have aircraft carriers; we have ships that go underwater; nuclear submarines.”

while Gov. Romney’s supporters saw things differently:

Mitt Romney needed to pass the usual tests for Republican presidential candidates in his debate Monday night with President Obama.

There was the Ford test (alternatively known as the Palin/Cain/Perry test): Would Mr. Romney say something so obviously misinformed, so manifestly silly, so revealingly ignorant as to disqualify him from serious consideration as a prospective commander-in-chief? He said nothing of the sort.

There was the Goldwater test (unfairly named, but reputations are stubborn things): Did Mr. Romney make pronouncements so belligerent as to make ordinary people fear for their children’s safety—or at least provide David Axelrod a chance to make it seem as if he did? He did not, though that won’t stop Mr. Axelrod from trying.

And there was the Bush test (not unfairly named but mistakenly understood to mean ideology when it ought to be about consistency): Would Mr. Romney find a deft way to define his foreign policy as something other than a retread of the 43rd president—but also as something defensible, distinctive, and (not least) identifiably Republican?

On this score, Mr. Romney succeeded, too, if only in a manner coyly calculated to raise the hackles of every conservative who has harbored doubts all along about the Massachusetts governor.

I think that the president may have out-smarted himself in the wisecrack that’s being quoted. If he’d said “crossbows and arbalests” he might have been on to something but the reality is that the Army buys thousands more bayonets, mostly M9s, every year and horses have proven very useful lately in Afghanistan so I strongly suspect we’ve been buying more of them too. Ships as a category aren’t obsolete, either. Do we need to buy more of them? The Navy has said “yes” but the president has disagreed with that. That’s due to a difference in strategic views rather than being out of touch.

I honestly don’t see how the president’s supporters can make the argument with a straight face that Mitt Romney isn’t sufficiently experienced in foreign policy to be president. You could reasonably argue that Barack Obama wasn’t sufficiently prepared in 2008 but that presidents get all of the experience they need in OJT, implying that Mitt Romney has all of the experience he needs as well. You might argue that Barack Obama learned everything he needed to know as a child in Indonesia which IMO doesn’t meet the laugh test. You can’t reasonably argue Romney doesn’t have enough experience.

Using the method I’ve suggested before of listening to the debate with the sound off the description I’ve been reading of the president’s performance as “condescending and small” comes across pretty strongly, particularly in the president’s closing remarks. Fortunately for the president by that time most people had probably changed the channel anyway.

Consider the graph of the last 30 days of the RCP average of polls. Obama has gone from four full points ahead to being slightly behind.

The overnight polls haven’t come in yet but as of this moment it looks to me as though Mitt Romney accomplished what he needed to in the debates while the president staunched the bleeding from the wounds he inflicted on himself in the first debate. As Bret Stephens, cited above, put it Romney is a “perfectly plausible president”. I don’t believe the president succeeded in painting Romney as stupid, frightening, or a clone of George W. Bush. If anything, on foreign policy he’s a clone of Barack Obama. For me that’s distressing but most of the country doesn’t see it that way.

Update

The overnight tracking polls are starting to come in and the RCP average of polls has risen to nearly a one point advantage for Romney over Obama. The Gallup poll of likely voters, the most significant metric until the election itself, shows that 51% of likely voters now plan to vote for Romney. That fully supports the point I made above: Romney did what he needed to do and the president, while he may be encouraging his most faithful supporters with quips and putdowns, didn’t.

Also, quite a few people are making the observation that I did—that the president outsmarted himself with the wisecrack about bayonets and horses that his faithful followers like so much. See here, for example.

I haven’t been able to quantify it as well as I’d like but I do know that the Army has been buying about 5,000 bayonets a year, a lot of them from the Ottawa Knife Company as it has for nearly the last century.

33 comments… add one
  • TastyBits Link

    The Marine Corps still includes bayonet training, but I would include e-tool training as well. Submarines are boats, and they get PO’ed when you call a ship a boat.

    US Presidents do not make dramatic foreign policy changes from the previous administration, but they may change the tone or thrust. The US has long term commitments, arrangements, and understandings that take time to change.

    The US Intelligence agencies have ties to many foreign agencies, and many of these ties differ from the US’s public stance. The “Arab Spring” has destroyed much of these ties. Egypt may be run by the dreaded Muslim Brotherhood, but they have valuable intelligence assets. From what I understand, Libya under Gaddafi was supplying valuable intelligence.

    Candidate Romney can say whatever he wants, but President Romney will do little different than President Obama.

  • PD Shaw Link

    I didn’t watch the debate since it was the last night of the baseball season. I found it interesting that while the CNN poll found Obama won (48 to 40), among that poll sample, more said the debate made them more likely to vote for Romney, particularly independents (by a margin of 32 to 20).

    I don’t have much confidence in these types of polls, but I find the apparent contradiction between scoring Obama the winner on points, while being more persuaded to vote for Romney interesting.

  • The overnight polls haven’t come in yet but as of this moment it looks to me as though Mitt Romney accomplished what he needed to in the debates while the president staunched the bleeding from the wounds he inflicted on himself in the first debate.

    I agree with the first part, but not the second. The President’s real problem isn’t how he performed in the first debate, it’s how he’s performed for the last three years and nine months. Romney just had to look like a plausible replacement.

  • I didn’t watch the debate since it was the last night of the baseball season. I found it interesting that while the CNN poll found Obama won (48 to 40), among that poll sample, more said the debate made them more likely to vote for Romney, particularly independents (by a margin of 32 to 20).

    PD, that all makes sense, though. A certain percentage of the population realizes that the debates are fairly artificial, so winning the debates isn’t what people are looking for. They’re doing what the can to take the measure of the candidates. Romney didn’t have to win. To quote Don Henley, “I just have to look good, I don’t have to be clear.” Times are tough and people are looking for a change. Romney just has to look credible.

    So Romney looked good. The President probably won on debating points when discussing foreign policy but Romney muted that by mostly agreeing with the President’s ideas while making a case that he would implement those ideas more competently. (Romney tried to do that, but he was hamstrung by not wanting to sound like he was agreeing with Obama as much as he was agreeing with Obama.) And when the President allowed himself to be sucked back into domestic policy Romney largely won in a cake walk. (Yes, I watched the miserable thing live.)

    I didn’t watch the debate since it was the last night of the baseball season.

    Well I know who you were rooting for, then! Tough night.

  • Ben Wolf Link

    Couldn’t disagree with you more, Dave.

    “If anything, on foreign policy he’s a clone of Barack Obama.”

    How would you know? What he said last night was contradictory to what he was saying a month ago, virtually promising war with Iran and a new cold war with the Russians. The problem of Mitt Romney is that the base he answers to and fears wants global war. Why are you so sure he can resist that?

  • The problem of Mitt Romney is that the base he answers to and fears wants global war.

    Oh, bollocks. _I_ want global war*, and I’m way far away from the base. The base wants to kick terrorist ass and fears Iran getting The Bomb.

    * If we bomb everyone else flat it’s got to help our economy. It’s the WWII Economic Recovery Plan.

  • U. S. foreign policy is, sadly from my point of view, tremendously durable. Obama’s foreign policy is very similar to that of Bush’s second term. A President Romney’s foreign policy will, as was suggested in comments above, probably resemble Obama’s.

    Romney has said two things that disqualify him from my support. First, his remark about Russia being our #1 geopolitical foe was just plain wrong and, worse, intemperate. There is no more important bilateral relationship in the world than that between Russia and the United States and they’re not our foe unless we elect to make them that.

    I honestly don’t think that we have any serious geopolitical foes at this juncture. There are countries that have national interests that don’t completely align with ours. If that makes a country a foe, there are about 190 of them and quite a few are bigger than Russia.

    The other is his repeated pledge to label China a currency manipulator officially on the day he takes office. China isn’t our problem. A whole laundry list of countries, of which China has the largest population, hold far too much in U. S. credit in various forms. And we import too many consumer goods. Labelling China a currency manipulator doesn’t too much about either of those problems.

    If we want to do something about China we might consider insisting that the Chinese live up to the pledges they made in order to join the WTO. We’re not the only one being hurt by China’s passive aggressive style.

  • The foreign policy debate is the least interesting of all of them.

    1. Many presidents come in with absolutely zero experience in that matter (Examples, Obama, Bush II, Clinton, Carter, Kennedy). So from that stand point being “weak in foreign policy” is not a deal breaker for voters.
    2. As Dave notes U.S. foreign policy has tremendous inertia behind it. It takes a very exceptional event to change U.S. foreign policy (e.g. Pearl Harbor, 9/11).
    3. The problem we may end up with so few ships (and planes–the same process hitting the Navy will hit the Air Force) is the weak economy.

    Which leads into what this election is going to be about…the economy, stupid. So, lets look at the debates:

    1. Romney wins solidly making Obama look, well silly.
    2. Tie between Romney and Obama–good for Obama in that is helps keep his ship from sinking completely.
    3. Obama wins, but with some potential downside and it is the least important debate to win.

    There are two downsides to this. First, Obama’s snarky comment while probably very amusing to many of his more loyal followers will fail a cursory fact check. Horses were instrumental in the initial days in Afghanistan after 9/11. What Romney said was in agreement with what Leon Panetta said in a letter to Senator McCain….in other words, Romney told the truth, Obama responded with a snide comment that is actually not true.

    The second downside is that Obama didn’t win this by enough of a margin to make it matter. From all the reports and articles it seems Romney did a good enough job to signal to voters he is capable of replacing Obama in regards to foreign policy.

  • BTW there was a news article I read that indicated in 2003 the U.S. Marines purchased 120,000 bayonets.

  • I don’t think that’s exactly right. I think that in 2003 the Marines placed an order for 120,000 bayonets to be delivered over a period of years. But, yes, that’s exactly the point. Bayonets aren’t obsolete. Neither are ships.

    If I had my druthers, we’d have a much smaller land force and many more ships with less emphasis on aircraft carriers. I wish that kind of strategic discussion were part of the discourse but, alas, that is not to be in the campaign-by-snark we’ve got going.

  • And considering that probably just about every Marine has a bayonet and there is something like 200,000 marines…we probably do have more bayonets today than we did in 1916.

    So Obama’s joke while condescending and showed him to be a prick, is probably wrong.

    There is this too,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_bayonet

    U.S. Army indicates 330,254 M9 bayonets. Probably considerably more than in 1916. And that is just one manufacturer. The article also suggests that the inventor also filled a military contract for 325,000 M9 bayonets. That would but the total at around 655,000.

    So no, I don’t think we have fewer bayonets.

  • The quote is that we have fewer bayonets. Not the number purchased. The point is that the U.S. military probably has over 500,000 bayonets. Maybe even as many as 1,000,000.

    So, the statement is factually incorrect.

    If this catches on…it may very well overshadow the initial comment and leave Obama looking silly…again.

  • PD Shaw Link

    Julian Barnes is reporting: “The U.S. Army has 419,155 bayonets in its inventory. The Marine Corps has about 195,334 bayonets (and has plans to acquire 175,061 more).” We only keep 176 horses on supply, which seems low even for training (and recreation) purposes.

    Most interesting for me to learn was that we kept a “monitor” class of ship up to WWII.

  • As for horses…is Obama implying ships in our Navy today are like horses? That we can do away with them?

  • As I said in the body of the post, to the extent that there was a point to the remark he should have said “crossbows and trebuchets”. As it was, as Steve V. said, he amused his fans but bumbled the facts.

  • And is there anything anywhere that suggests the U.S. is going to increase the number of carrier strike groups? We have 11 so far. Obama made it sound like carrier strikes groups are the thing going forward, so are we going to reduce the number of ships in general and increase the number of carrier strike groups (which as far as I can tell has been at 11 for some time now).

    Really, the more you delve into the quip the more like a moron Obama appears.

  • Actually Carrier Strike Group 7 was deactivated in December of 2011…so I guess the answer is no, we will not be adding to the number of ships where planes land on them.

    Geeez, the guy is looking like an imbecile….

  • TastyBits Link

    Mitt Romney’s expansion of the US Navy is actually the existing 10-year plan on an accelerated schedule. I think he wants to complete the 10-year plan in about 7 years.

  • PD Shaw Link

    Sorry Dave, you’re missing the point completely. Who will keep us safe from the Kaiser? These are words I would never have thought to utter, but now? I can only shudder.

    More substantively, and with some guilt, I feel relief that the Zombie Cardinals have been staked with a wooden bat. Watching them the last two years has been stressful, and I will feel similar relief when the elections are over.

    I think Chinese intentions with its naval fleet are very provocative, and worth discussion. Attempts to mention this matter at OTB suggest a complete and utter ambivalence outside of how the opinions formed will impact the November election.

    More naval tonnage, less steeling of Asian horses.

  • Steve V wrote: If this catches on…it may very well overshadow the initial comment and leave Obama looking silly…again still.

    Fixed it for ya.

  • Andy Link

    Well, looking at military capabilities, I see the President’s point even though it was badly made – Capabilities is what matters and the simple fact is that horses and bayonets are not in any way significant contributors to modern military capabilities, which is to say, military power. The fact that the military still buys bayonets and that some of our special forces use horses on an ad hoc basis is not really relevant to a serious discussion about what military capabilities we actually need and for what purpose.

    Secondly, Romney wants a bigger Navy. His comparison to 1916/17 (he’s used both dates) is a pretty bad comparison because ship numbers =/= capabilities. There is a similar problem with liberals who cite the hundreds of “bases” that surround Iran in order to prove how threatened the Iranians are. Not all bases are created equal, and neither are ships or fleets or naval weapons or any number of other things. Some shit-hole FOB in eastern Afghanistan is not anything like Diego Garcia, yet both get counted as “bases.” Same thing happens with ships. Number’s aren’t irrelevant, obviously, but there is much more to that story. Plus, it’s not really clear to me why Romney wants a bigger Navy, much less what specific naval capabilities he’d like to invest in and for what strategic purpose. Presumably a bigger Navy means he would want to use it for something in addition to what the Navy is doing now?

    Speaking of strategic purpose, neither one of them set out any kind of strategic vision, much less an actual plan or an idea of how military power would contribute to that vision. We’ve been strategically rudderless since the end of the Cold War and, with a few exceptions, discussion of military capability in relation to strategic goals is a kind of self-licking ice cream cone for the elites in this country, subject to the latest military fad along with with who controls the defense committees in the House and Senate.

    The huge missed opportunity on defense in relation to economics and the budget is the tremendous amount of waste in the DoD, particularly procurement. The sad fact is that the procurement system is broken and a lot of the reason why the numbers of ships and aircraft are going down is because the DoD seems incapable of meeting budget and timeliness estimates. The Air Force is facing a “fighter gap” and the reason isn’t because we don’t spend enough of defense – it’s entirely due to wasted money and the failure to meet production timelines. Just look at the F-22 and F-35 programs. Then there are the billions are wasted on programs that are cancelled in infancy (CSAR-X, KC-X and many more).

    Oh yeah, and it takes a freaking year to hire someone into the bureaucracy.

    So, what we need more than banal “fact checking” about bayonet purchases is an actual debate on national strategy along with at least an outline showing how to get the military capabilities to support that strategy.

  • Really, the more you delve into the quip the more like a moron Obama appears.

    Steve V., you sound like Obama is talking you into voting for Romney. Obama and his supporters have almost done the same to me.

  • Rich Horton Link

    I’m still waiting for Obama to explain his “analogy” that a Ticonderoga class cruiser is like a horse.

    I’d really like to hear him try. At least I’d have some idea what he’s talking about.

  • Some shit-hole FOB in eastern Afghanistan is not anything like Diego Garcia, yet both get counted as “bases.”

    Are there any FOBs in Afghanistan that aren’t shitholes?

    Speaking of strategic purpose, neither one of them set out any kind of strategic vision, much less an actual plan or an idea of how military power would contribute to that vision.

    I’ve found both sides to be pretty lax in their terminology. I remember Romney running an ad that said something along the line of “My plan is to put twelve million Americans* back to work.” No, that’s not a plan, that’s a goal, a vision, an aspiration. Grrr.

    * As opposed to illegal Mexican immigrants, I guess.

  • Oh yeah, and it takes a freaking year to hire someone into the bureaucracy.

    One hope for a Romney Administration would be that he’d get his executive jones on for fixing how the government actually runs. (This has been a point Schuler has come back to over and over again through the years.) How he’d get anything past Congress remains to be seen.

  • TastyBits Link

    The US Navy is in the process of increasing the aircraft carrier groups. I think it is from 11 to 12, but one or two groups are being retired. At some point during the plan, the number of groups will drop to 9 or 10. (link) He may also want to accelerate the Littoral Combat Ship schedule.

    This is happening under President Obama. Under President Romney, the schedule will be accelerated.

  • Fixed it for ya.

    Heh, thanks.

  • Andy,

    Well, looking at military capabilities, I see the President’s point even though it was badly made – Capabilities is what matters and the simple fact is that horses and bayonets are not in any way significant contributors to modern military capabilities, which is to say, military power.

    So why are the Marines still buying them? Institutional inertia? They are used in a variety of things a Marine will do while in the field–i.e. they are viewed as a utility tool, not just a weapon.

    As for horses, did you read the article about how troops mounted on horses were the first to engage hostiles in Afghanistan?

    Granted, they may not be the most important pieces of equipment in the U.S. arsenal, but to say they just aren’t helpful is in my opinion just silly. It is silly because, yeah if we armed Marines with just bayonets, then sure their capabilities would be reduced. But the Capabilities of the Marines depend on their entire set of equipment…of which the lowly bayonet is a component.

    And as for the rest of the comment as I noted, a carrier strike group was deactivated on December 31, 2011. It was deactivated due to budgetary constraints. That is, money. Or to put it another way, the economy. So we say a near 10% reduction in our carrier strike group and that translates directly into our ability to project power.

    Secondly, Romney wants a bigger Navy. His comparison to 1916/17 (he’s used both dates) is a pretty bad comparison because ship numbers =/= capabilities.

    Okay, I’ll agree that we could project more power now with our modern ships than we could even with a vastly larger navy back in 1916. I’ll grant you that. But we can’t project powers without ships. The number of ships is part of the equation.

    Now maybe we don’t need to project power like we used too. Maybe we need to rethink our role in regards to foreign policy. I’m fine with that discussion. I’d probably come down on the side of, lets do less. Less military, less activity abroad, and focus on taking care of stuff here at home. But on a logical and factual basis Obama came of looking not only rude and condescending, but foolish too….on his supposed strong point over Romney, foreign policy.

    Same thing happens with ships. Number’s aren’t irrelevant, obviously, but there is much more to that story.

    Yes there is, the “much more” basically boils down to, “We can’t afford it anymore, unless we find another revenue source.” It isn’t just that we don’t need that many ships, but that we can’t afford them…even the big ships that really really really are about projecting power. You know, those ships where planes can land on them. Oh, and they need other smaller ships too. Like cruisers, destroyers, logistical ships, etc.

    Ice,

    Steve V., you sound like Obama is talking you into voting for Romney.

    I still can’t bring myself to vote….but yeah, Obama really is making Romney look better, relatively speaking.

    I’m still waiting for Obama to explain his “analogy” that a Ticonderoga class cruiser is like a horse.

    I’d really like to hear him try. At least I’d have some idea what he’s talking about.

    This! That was something else I thought, but didn’t bring up. What Obama’s quip implies is that guided missile cruiser is like a horse and that an Arleigh Burke class destroyer is like a bayonet.

    Tasty Bits,

    The US Navy is in the process of increasing the aircraft carrier groups. I think it is from 11 to 12, but one or two groups are being retired.

    I have been searching on this since I heard the “zinger” and haven’t seen anything to support this. In fact, I’ve found evidence to the contrary, that one carrier strike group was deactivated due to budgetary constraints. The plan might be to add more carrier strike groups, but the issue is there isn’t money to do it…and after looking over your link, I think it is “the plan” to expand the Navy a bit, but the problem is “with what money”…. And after reading your link, I’m sticking with this view.

    This is happening under President Obama.

    No, it is the goal. As to whether or not it will happen has yet to be seen. Also, check table 1, it is pretty clear, the Navy plans on having 11 carrier strike groups, not 12. 12 was the number from the February 2006 plan.

  • Andy Link

    Steve V,

    So why are the Marines still buying them? Institutional inertia? They are used in a variety of things a Marine will do while in the field–i.e. they are viewed as a utility tool, not just a weapon.

    Yes, they have uses. So do recordable DVD’s. The absence of either would not have a significant effect on US military power. Bayonets (and men with the ability, will, organization and leadership to use them – all more important than the actual bayonet) used to be a significant factor in deciding the outcome of battles and thus military campaigns. That is simply not true today. Same for horses.

    As for horses, did you read the article about how troops mounted on horses were the first to engage hostiles in Afghanistan?

    I’m well aware of that. Flexibility, initiative and the ability to embed with indigenous forces are what the those guys specialize in (The men in question are Army Special Forces). If the Afghans rode yaks, they’d be riding yaks too. They also made use of (and continue to) the ubiquitous Toyota hilux. When I was in Afghanistan in 2005, I supported an SF team that performed veterinary services for village livestock in Helmand province. Vet services can be important, but we shouldn’t mistake them for military power. The ability of highly trained and specialized “elite” forces to use non-standard equipment on an ad hoc basis should not be interpreted to mean that horses, or anything else, are in any way an important component of US military power. Rather it says that Army Special Forces (and other units with a similar mission and training) which are able to use indigenous transportation, provide vet services, etc. in a complex and dangerous foreign combat zone, are an important component of US military power.

    And as for the rest of the comment as I noted, a carrier strike group was deactivated on December 31, 2011. It was deactivated due to budgetary constraints. That is, money. Or to put it another way, the economy. So we say a near 10% reduction in our carrier strike group and that translates directly into our ability to project power.

    Well, yes and no. The Navy did it as a money-saving measure but also for practical reasons due to the procurement problems I already described. First of all, CSG-7 is an organizational command structure and its deactivation does not reduce the Navy’s ship-count or manpower. By law, the Navy must maintain 11 active aircraft carriers. By law, it must maintain a certain end strength in personnel and also a certain number of aircraft. The deactivation of an organization structure doesn’t change any of that.

    The deactivation was done because of a few factors:

    – 2-3 carriers will be in the yards getting refueled and refurbished and so will be unavailable for operations for much of the next decade. Instead of keeping another active CSG around for the “six-months here, six months there” when a carrier will actually be available to fill it, the Navy decided to simply deactivate it for now and save some money. Once the ships are out of the yards and the Ford is operational, that CSG will come back. Unless, of course, Congress decides to cut end strength or the number of carriers in the meantime.
    – The USS Enterprise will be decommissioned in a little over a month. Its replacement is the USS Ford which won’t be ready for service until probably 2017 at the earliest. Let’s assume the Ford is completed on time (2015), it’s still got at least 18 months of shakedown before it is considered fully operational.
    – Because of delays in the F-35 program, the Navy doesn’t have enough F-18’s to fill the air wing component of the CSG anyway. If the Navy kept the CSG it would have to buy more F-18’s now to fill the airwing which would mean fewer F-35’s later. Or it would have to increase the optempo of the existing F-18 fleet (causing a number of issues I won’t detail here). This is not a budget problem, rather it is entirely due to delays in the F-35 program. The last time I checked, the program was at least 50% over budget and more than two years behind schedule.

    So, as I already pointed out, we wouldn’t have so many budget problems if the DoD could actually procure equipment close to the estimated cost and on the estimated timeline. All of the Navy’s major procurement programs are grossly over-budget and years late. That’s not a problem that can be solved by throwing more money around and it’s a problem that neither candidate seems to be aware of, much less intent on addressing. It’s something that a President can actually have a significant impact on fixing. Fix that and a lot of these so-called “budget” problems go away. Not a sexy campaign issue, but unlike most of what these candidates promise, it’s actually something the executive can accomplish.

    Yes there is, the “much more” basically boils down to, “We can’t afford it anymore, unless we find another revenue source.” It isn’t just that we don’t need that many ships, but that we can’t afford them…even the big ships that really really really are about projecting power. You know, those ships where planes can land on them. Oh, and they need other smaller ships too. Like cruisers, destroyers, logistical ships, etc.

    Not just about revenue – I won’t repeat what I’ve already said about the broken procurement system. As for the rest, yes, we need a mix of capabilities and ships types. But what mix of capabilities and vessels? To what purpose? It’s one thing to say we need certain kinds of ships. It’s one thing to say we need X number of ships in the Navy. It’s quite another to justify the mix and total force in the context of a strategy based on to concrete and achievable national goals. But here in the US we do it ass-backwards. We push through whatever programs and capabilities we can through the meat-grinder of Congress and muddle-through with whatever comes out the other end. There is no strategy guiding these decisions beyond the paper-thin platitudes of ignorant elites and think-tankers who drank the kool-aid or have an axe to grind or pockets to line. The amount we spend is the least of our problems. Like health care and education, the American people are getting poor value for their hard-earned tax dollars spent on defense.

  • steve Link

    Andy- People forget how many soldiers we had under arms during WW I. Many more than we have now. Many in our current armed forces never carry bayonets. Using the 1917 date, we would have almost undoubtedly had more people carrying bayonets than we do now. Of course, they were used frequently in WW I, and are rarely used now.

    As to the number and kinds of ships we have, I have tended to see that as a product of the competition between the different service branches and rivalries within the services. Territory, numbers and size. Politics over needs. Pretty much the same for our planes and everything else.

    Steve

  • Andy Link

    Steve,

    Yeah, that was pretty much my point. The fact that we still have bayonets does not mean they are militarily relevant to most modern warfare. We’ve done ten years of two major land wars in Asia. I have yet to see a bayonet on anyone’s M-4.

    As an aside, the Marines are primarily interested in bayonets for their amphibious assault mission. They would probably be used for a “storming the beaches” scenario. Speaking of which, a lot of people over the years wonder why the US keeps focusing so many resources on the amphibious assault mission. The reason, of course, is that Congress loves the Marine Corps and the Marine Corps thinks it needs that mission to justify its existence.

    On shipbuilding, there actually isn’t a lot of competition with the other services. We’ll continue to build ships because Congress does not want to lose the industrial capacity to build them given that there are so few shipyards left in the US. The real competition is between Navy Air and the Air Force and of course between the Air Force and the Army. And then there is the Marine Corps…;)

  • TastyBits Link

    @Steve Verdon

    It has been a while since I was in the report, and it was an earlier one. I was moving fast, and I pulled the numbers from memory. I was looking at the Littoral Combat Ship , and I noticed that Romney’s buildup proposal was the same. The link was a quick grab, and I am not sure how the budget (or lack of) is affecting the timetable.

    I had originally dismissed his proposal as campaign nonsense. There is a tremendous amount of additional support needed for an aircraft carrier – ships, planes, munitions, personnel, port space, housing, on-shore personnel, etc.

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    @Andy

    Modern warfare like fashion tends to come back around. In the late 1980’s tanks were thought to be obsolete, but Saddam Hussein disproved this idea. The US is presently not fighting a matched force, but it will one day.

    Bayonets are used for close combat, and they are used more for defending fixed positions. They can also be used for crowd control. Marines guard US embassies, and bayonets are useful for this purpose.

    There is usually two Marine Expeditionary Units floating around the world – west (Pacific) and east (Mediterranean). These are battalion sized units, and they are fully stocked for about two weeks of operations. In addition, Marine Preposition Ships allow Marine units to be quickly equipped and ready for action. Army airborne units have a similar ability, but they cannot be as heavily equipped.

    There may never be another amphibious assault (opposed), but there will be more amphibious landings (unopposed). Marines will always be needed.

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