I’m not particularly interested in many of the stories occupying the opinion pages these days but what I am interested in is the common thread that runs through them: most are missing the actual story.
Classified documents. All I have to say about the present kerfuffle is that while legally there may be a distinction between Trump’s handling of classified documents and Biden’s handling of classified documents politically there is no difference. The press and opinion writers are missing the story. The real story is twofold. First, a part that would be comical if it weren’t so tragic. The routine classification of documents by the federal government means that a document being classified is no particular distinction—it’s ordinary. No wonder the president doesn’t remember having these documents. It’s not that his memory is failing but that having classified documents in his possession is so routine as to leave no impression. Isn’t that the opposite of what classification should do? The other part is, as usual, the Congress’s fault. The Congress was, has been, and is unwilling to codify the process for a transition of power into law. The last three presidencies have made it clear that there really should be a process that is beyond doubt or question and that every president and vice president follows simply because it’s the process.
Harry and Meghan. I have less than no interest in them other than that they convince me that the French’s attitude towards royals was about right. The real story which I haven’t seen mentioned is that they’re telling their truth not the truth. I have no doubt they are telling their truth but we have no way of determining its relation to actual events.
The debt ceiling. Once again, the real story is that this is the Congress’s fault. Either there should be no debt ceiling or Congress should be bound by it. Until 1917 and Congress’s Second Bond Act there was no problem.
George Santos. The real story is not that politicians lie, that George Santos is a fraud, or that he’s a Republican. The real story is that until the Supreme Court stuck its nose in the practice was that Congress could “limit its own membership”, i.e. it could refuse to seat people after they were elected. Now the Congress is in a pickle. There’s nothing it can actually do.
The war in Ukraine. IMO the real story is the fog of war. We have no real idea what’s going on. What we’re getting is propaganda from one side or another.
You are trying too hard to both sides this. Murder and jaywalking are both a crime, but they are vastly different in effect and consequences and how they should be punished. While I agree that there should be more focus on the fact that we over classify stuff and the transitions are poorly laid out or monitored, there will always be some errors. When one is found and it is asked that the documents be returned then they should be returned. If either guy did it knowingly and on purpose, then that is another story.
The same on lying. Its one thing to exaggerate one’s credentials, while they are mostly true, and something else to just entirely make them up. By proposing that what Santos did is no big deal you are accepting that there is no amount of lying, or lying on any topic, that is not acceptable.
Steve
I didn’t say that what Santos did was no big deal. I said that politicians lie and that there was probably nothing that Congress could do about it. Try to codify your view into law. You’ll see the problem.
It may well be that New York can do something about it. I wouldn’t know.
I should add that there is another underlying problem: the very large size of Congressional districts. In a district of 50,000 people it’s a lot harder to lie about what you’ve done and who you are. In a district of 500,000 as we have seen it’s a lot easier.
The routine classification of documents by the federal government means that a document being classified is no particular distinction—it’s ordinary. No wonder the president doesn’t remember having these documents.
Dave, I had to read your statement on classification twice, considering how you have treated the two president’s retention of classified documents so differently. In the case of Biden, it is said at least some of the docs taken were of the most highly sensitive in their content, requiring the highest security clearances to even read them. Furthermore, VP’s don’t have the legal leeway to declassify any documents. The only one who has the ability to do such is a sitting President, like Trump was when he took certain classified documents with him – presumably regarding the Russiagate fiasco.
At the time when the Mar a Lago raid happened, you seemed concerned about how classified docs could be handled so lightly by ex-presidents. Now, when an ex-VP is caught doing much worse – having caches of highly classified papers in multiple unsecured locations – it’s being relayed as a routine or “ordinary†occurrence, even rationalizing Biden’s lack of remembering as no big deal.
BTW, why hasn’t Biden’s home been raided with the same brutal FBI fanfare as Trump’s was, considering the reasons behind his home invasion were the same as Biden’s?
In my view the president has placed Merrick Garland in a pickle, likely vitiating any obstruction case against Trump.
The party line is that the two cases are completely different since President Biden is not obstructing justice and cooperating completely with authorities. The unintentional comedy is that of course we should trust the president’s lawyers to disclose whatever they find completely.
I agree that they’re different legally. However, politically there is no distinction and that explains how the White House and Merrick Garland are responding completely.
I don’t recall my treating the raid on Mar-a-Lago as you suggest. What I recall is that I was completely consistent and that the real problem is that there is no standard process that applies to all ex-presidents (and ex-vice-presidents).
BTW go back and reread what I have written. I don’t believe I have ever written that there was a federal records act case against Trump. IMO there’s a separation of powers issue. It may be that a Constitutional amendment is required.
https://jonathanturley.org/2023/01/13/like-a-car-only-better-bidens-corvette-defense/
Jonathan Turley sees it a little differently. Furthermore, how many years did Biden have these twice-moved classified docs before they were “discovered,†then not immediately divulged until after the election, and then Biden magnanimously praised for not obstructing Justice? Even the special Councils assigned to both men are different in scope – Biden’s being very narrow while Trump’s much broader. Also, the one overseeing Biden’s issue is a friend of FBI Director Ray and other friends of Biden, while the one looking into Trump’s problems is a raving dem bull dog, intent on a Trump conviction. I just don’t see Justice being played fairly to both men – no matter how disliked and maliciously regarded one is over the other!
I worked with classified information almost daily for most of the 23 years I worked as an intelligence analyst. For an intelligence analyst, working with classified is completely routine. And yet I, and tens of thousands of others like me, never mishandled classified, much less stored it in my garage or kept it as souvenirs.
The routine nature of working with classified was not Biden’s, Trump’s, or Clinton’s problem, it’s the sense of entitlement of senior leaders that the rules do not apply to them combined with the fact that no one was able or willing to apply the rules to them.
I agree with you about Presidential transitions. It’s quite obvious at this point that there is little to no security and there are probably many other things floating around in boxes or perhaps even purposely taken by staff over the years. I doubt this problem is only confined to transitions – I’m sure lots of people “take work home” don’t get searched on the way out (VIP syndrome), and then who knows what happens.
Congress could do something, but they won’t. But if he’s serious as he claims, Biden should do this and mandate better security procedures similar to what the rest of the government has to do. FFS, the White House is not following its own EO and guidance, this isn’t rocket science.
I don’t excuse any of them. There’s a standard for mishandling classified info and they all failed the standard. Trump is in much more legal hot water because he refused to give it up and had to have it forcibly taken. But the original taking is the same – at least until the facts in the investigations prove otherwise.
“Murder and jaywalking are both a crime, but they are vastly different in effect and consequences and how they should be punished.”
A more apt example is that there were two murders, but in one case, the murderer turned himself in, and in the other case, the murderer did not cooperate, and the police had to raid his home to find the body.
“The war in Ukraine. IMO the real story is the fog of war. We have no real idea what’s going on. What we’re getting is propaganda from one side or another.”
The broad strokes of the war are pretty clear – the war has turned to attrition over the winter, and each side is attempting to reconstitute for the spring. It’s the future and the relative capabilities of the two sides that are in doubt and probably not knowable.
It’s more than that. For example, although we get reports on Russian strikes against civilian targets we get no reports on Ukrainian strikes against civilian targets. And we must take the Ukrainians’ reports that they were actually civilian targets to begin with. We’re getting wildly exaggerated casualty claims. Maybe they’re true. Maybe they’re false. Maybe they’re somewhere in between. It is almost certain that the Ukrainians have understated the degree to which the Ukrainian population has fled the country but, honestly, we just don’t know.
Most of that kind of “reporting” is tactical activity that doesn’t tell us much, and I agree that it is unreliable. But we can track where the front lines are, where the fighting is taking place, and get a pretty good sense of the current operational strategy for each side.
“The routine classification of documents by the federal government means that a document being classified is no particular distinction—it’s ordinary. No wonder the president doesn’t remember having these documents. It’s not that his memory is failing but that having classified documents in his possession is so routine as to leave no impression.”
Pure crap. As interviews with all sorts of government officials will corroborate, everyone knows the rules. (See Andy’s comments.) They are strict and usually scrupulously adhered to. Biden knew what he was doing. (As did Trump) Motive is unknown. Legal consequences? That’s where things get murky. Not impressed there are many. Political consequences? Heh. Depends on media, voter apathy……….
“By proposing that what Santos did is no big deal you are accepting that there is no amount of lying, or lying on any topic, that is not acceptable.”
LOL I’m waiting for steves dissertation on Ilan Omar, or China spy fucker Erik Swallwell. Or how about Adam Schiff, the biggest liar in Washington? Or Nancy Pelosi, the inside trader who makes Warren Buffet look like a piker? And Harry Reid. Apparently acceptable in steves corrupt moral code…….
Gee, I totally missed where those people completely made up a false person in order to get elected ie they lied directly to the voters. Any citations? Didnt think so. (And the biggest liar crown still goes to Trump but even he didnt completely mad up his resume. He really did go to college and he really did do real estate deals, even if many of them were crooked. He really does have Jewish relatives and didnt have to go claiming they died in the Holocaust.)
Steve
Andy- Not to labor the analogy thing but it seems more like first degree murder vs manslaughter. One party appears to have knowingly planned to take the documents. Why else would they refuse to give them back and there were so many AND they lied about having looked and not having anymore? The other accidentally or thoughtlessly took them but realizing they have done so are giving them back, especially since they probably could have kept it quiet.
Kind of off topic, but we are still dealing with people who did not grow up in the digital age. For my work I seldom use paper anymore. I think that eventually maybe almost all of this stuff is electronic and that may make things more difficult, or do they deliberately try to be paper oriented to avoid that? Which will also be an issue I think.
Steve
“Andy- Not to labor the analogy thing but it seems more like first degree murder vs manslaughter. One party appears to have knowingly planned to take the documents. Why else would they refuse to give them back and there were so many AND they lied about having looked and not having anymore? ”
Well, that assumes facts that are not yet in evidence. The investigations are still ongoing. There’s no evidence I’m aware of that Trump intentionally took them, and I have a hard time believing he packs his own boxes. The same is probably true of Biden – that’s what staff is for.
So as it stands right now, the original mishandling of classified information is basically the same – they were in possession of stuff they shouldn’t have been in possession of. If it turns out that Trump intentionally took stuff with the intent to keep it, and that Biden was simply lazy or negligent, then that would be a relevant difference. But as far as I’m aware, the investigations have not shown that as of yet.
From there, Trump diverges substantially from Biden in his refusal to give the stuff back, which is a separate (and serious) potential crime apart from mishandling classified.
As I’ve said before IMO the likelihood of either Trump or Biden being prosecuted under the records act is remote. Trump’s being prosecuted for obstruction is likelier but, to the chagrin of Trump-haters, probably unlikely as well.
I do think Trump and Biden’s cases are different — mainly due to the results. Trump will be indicted, Biden will not.
I am very skeptical that technology will be panacea to the problem, if anything, it makes it worse.
The #1 rule of secrets management is the less secrets one has to manage; the more secure it is. Technology, in particular digitalization, makes it possible to store orders of magnitude more data, with the attendant challenges in managing it.
Do a thought exercise, if classified data had to be written on stone tablets, I doubt there anyone wants to turn their residence into a rock quarry. And don’t forget, the biggest leak of classified data was done by Snowden who breached NSA’s computer systems.
I think they’re different, too. I just think that the likelihood of Trump’s being prosecuted is remote. As I’ve said multiple times before IMO we need a process and, possibly, a Constitutional amendment.
Neither will be prosecuted. We are much too deferential to our politicians.
” There’s no evidence I’m aware of that Trump intentionally took them,”
Then why not give them back when asked?
Seriously, I think you can minimize this but I think there will always be a few pieces missed that will accidentally be packed that shouldn’t. When you live upstairs from your office I think papers will travel. Pick out a team of your best military intelligence people to actually pack the papers and one of them will eventually make a mistake. Its going to happen. When it does the response when asked to give them back should be honored. You shouldn’t refuse to send them back. You really shouldn’t send back claims you have no confidential papers without checking to see that is the case. You shouldn’t try to hide them when the FBI does come to look for them. All of that suggests you intended to keep tham all along.
Steve
BTW, we now have Santos on a taped radio show claiming he went to Baruch College (he didnt) on an athletic scholarship, was a star on the volleyball team and it ended up with him needing two total knee replacements. The firm he left in 2021 is being charged with/investigated for running a Ponzi scheme. Guys either a sociopath or compulsive liar or both.
Steve
Steve, you seem almost unnaturally riveted on one Congressman who probably has the ethics, and history to match, much like Biden and his son. Biden seems to almost daily misrepresent (lie) something in his biography in speeches and interviews, leech off of some female (especially children), and now forget he had top secret documents for over 6 years, in 4 unsecured locations.
It took one of Biden’s highly paid attorneys ($2500/hr), Dana Ramus, to “inadvertently†run across them. What was someone like her doing, rummaging around a closet, unless she knew what she was looking for? Another high powered DC attorney, Bob Bauer, of the infamous Perkins Coie law firm – the one overseeing the 2020 and 2022 election skirmishes – is now trying to legally downplay any criminal involvement Biden might be charged with for what is normally viewed as an act of jeopardizing national security. Apparently not even the WH Archivists were aware of and keeping track of documents dealing with Ukraine – a subject very much in the forefront today. Ironically, these same archivists did knew what docs Trump had, where they were stored, and for a year and a half were “negotiating†with him to have them returned. However, after this relatively short period of time, when compared to the discovery of Biden’s lost docs, Trump’s actions are being labeled as “obstruction, while the current President’s are fluffed off as “unintentional forgetting.â€
Care to take a shot at why you wouldn’t give back documents when asked if you didnt take them on purpose? We will have to wait to see the details on Biden documents but if it went 6 years without the Archives or anyone else noticing they were missing I would think they weren’t especially important. The ones Trump took were noticed quickly, again because they were probably more important, and they asked to have them back.
Why dont we let investigators search through documents at all fo Biden’s sites and all of Trump’s. Anything they find they can take back if relevant. Last I saw Biden had about 10 documents and Trump 350. Get a final total.
Steve
Steve, your presumptions about Trump usually frame a worst case scenario, while a Biden infraction is met with benign rationals.
Trump, like Obama and other presidents, took materials that the
National Archivists and presidential teams squabbled over and wanted returned. Obama kept documents, awaiting digitalization, in a warehouse for a prolonged period of time. No one raided that warehouse. Biden, as VP, had no authority to take any top secret documents with him. He obviously either didn’t inform the archivists about this, or just took them without informing anyone, which puts an onus on the archivists for their laxness, and double stander treatment of the two men. The docs taken by Biden, BTW, have consistently been labeled as the highest in their classification, not nothing-burgers – docs that those who found them didn’t even have the proper security clearances to handle or read.
Furthermore, the docs stashed in a closet at the University of Penn was a university the CCP gave over 50 million dollars to, holding forums for followers, which were later erased. Biden’s home, having unauthorized docs, is a place where Hunter had access – a questionable candidate already having questionable monetary ties to both Ukraine and China.
The devil is usually in the details, and when dealing with Biden such details are either blurred or dismissed.