I was preparing a post on what the body language of the parties in the meeting between Presidents Trump and Zelensky told us when lo! and behold Victoria Craw did it for me in the Washington Post:
The decision not to use an interpreter, the power imbalance among the parties and Zelensky’s “warrior energy” after three years of conflict all contributed to the Washington meeting boiling over, body-language analysts said.
Trump is often polite with leaders, but relations with Zelensky, never particularly warm, have been souring. Trump has claimed, falsely, that Zelensky is a dictator and that Ukraine started the war, matching the Kremlin line. Zelensky has said Trump lives in a “web of disinformation.”
Goyder likened the exchange to a performance in which Trump and Zelensky were acting out different scenes.
Trump was acting out a court scene; Zelensky was acting in a war movie and make no mistake he was acting. He’s not a warrior; he plays one on TV. It began with how he was dressed. Why was he dressed that way? Why did Fidel Castro wear fatigues? It was to project an image.
And he was acting aggressively right from the outset rather than in reaction to Trump and Vance as some have said:
To Darren Stanton, who studies and comments on body language and behavior, Zelensky appeared “quite angry from the outset” and got “caught up in his own ego.” When Vance is talking, Zelensky moves from leaning forward to leaning back with his arms crossed, showing a “dramatic change in inner emotion.”
Or, as I’ve said before, he badly misread the room. As somebody said, all he had to do was come in, say “Thank you”, sign the economic agreement, and then ask what was for lunch. That’s it. Instead he went out of his way to antagonize the president and vice president of the United States, Ukraine’s single largest benefactor.
What was he thinking? I think he was still chafing under Trump’s comments about his being a “dictator”; he was responding emotionally and, again as I’ve said, that was a rookie response.
Why did President Zelensky not use an interpreter? I think he overestimated his command of English and that failed him since it took him a while before he understood when Trump, speaking colloquially, said he “didn’t have the cards”.
There is another interpretation and that is he is acting in the way he has been encouraged to act by our European notional allies and the Biden Administration. Contrary to what some are saying, the default attitude of European leaders towards the United States is disdain and has been for over 200 years. That hasn’t changed. They don’t respect us. When they act as though they do, it’s because they want something from us. That has been true since before the time of Our American Cousin and remains true. However, as in Our American Cousin, it’s not the Americans who are the “rubes” but the Europeans.
IOW, you expected him to grovel. Vance was accusing him of leading propaganda tours and he should just accept it. Meh. Zelensky should have either decided to not go or if he was going to go he would need to grovel ie act like a Republican politician or a business leader meeting with Trump. Trump still hasn’t forgiven him for not providing election help so it wasn’t going to be friendly. A big clue this was going to go bad was having Vance present. Another meetings with a nation’s leader it would just be Trump and that leader.
Also, while Z is not a warrior Russia has been trying to kill him for the last 3 years. Trump golfs.
Steve
I have not watched the whole thing and don’t intend to, but some of what I’ve read indicated that Vance has a larger role in the dust-up than descriptions that focus on the two leaders. AIUI, Trump refrained from responding to Zelensky’s more charged comments until Vance stepped in. Before that Trump repeated lines like I’m in the middle, I want to solve these things, and bad talking won’t get this solved. Of the three, Trump was the most diplomatic and I question why the VP is talking at all. This was a bitter pill for Ukraine to swallow, and Trump understood that, but as the “winner,” Trump was going to let Zelensky say his piece.
I don’t think it was wrong for Zelensky to wear the uniform he’s been wearing to show solidarity with the people fighting the war. Castro continued to wear fatigues after the Revolution was over signaling the government was still at war with enemies internal and external. I think Zelensky need a diplomatic statement that noted that the agreement was entered into in furtherance of Ukraine’s security concerns. It didn’t need to be hectoring, it might have set some expectation bars, but it would have been most useful if it was short so it could be referenced easily in the future.
Added: Trump walked back the dictator statement the day before, though I think he denied he ever said that or that was something he would say.
“When asked by a reporter whether he still believed Zelensky was a dictator, Trump responded: “Did I say that? I can’t believe I said that. Next question.”
“We want to work with him, President Zelensky … and we will work with him,” Trump said. “I think the president and I actually have had a very good relationship. It maybe got a little bit testy because we wanted to have a little bit of what the European nations had.””
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5167646-trump-zelensky-dictator/
Trump is being diplomatic here. If Zelensky said nice things about Trump, it would be groveling?
“IOW, you expected him to grovel.”
Arrant nonsense. The deal was already cut. It was Scott Jennings who noted, all he had to do was show up in coat and tie (its the Oval, people), enjoy lunch, and then sign the deal he had already agreed to. That’s not groveling. That’s negotiating in good faith.
He tried a cheap stunt; a bait and switch, apparently hoping that he could use the venue and audience to gain advantage and additional guarantees of money, weapons or troops. Rookie move hardly says it. He shot his dick off.
Trump appears to really want to get this sinkhole war resolved or de-escalated. But I see Zelensky was making noises about return of Crimea. I’m sorry, but that is delusional, and not encouraging.
I like to comment more later. PD, you should watch the whole press conference.
All the things about Vince starting the dust-up or it being an ambush are wrong. What happened was I think a Polish or Ukrainian reporter asked whether Trump was aligning too much with Putin. Trump gave an answer along the lines that his approach was in the service of diplomacy. Vince added with an observation that Biden’s approach of saying Putin was the devil didn’t work; and perhaps the way out of this was diplomacy. Nothing that was directed to Zelensky or critical of Ukrainians, very much just trying to draw a contrast with Biden’s approach.
That’s when Zelensky jumped with a barbed question of “how can you trust Putin” that was more of an attack at the Vice President, it started with “JD can I ask you” in a very patronizing tone. Zelensky had his arms crossed in a very tense or aggressive posture.
If you watched the entire press conference, and if you look at the context of the background of the mineral deal that was the reason for Zelensky’s visit; its clear Zelensky had his own agenda of obtaining a iron-clad security guarantee from the US. Zelensky’s bullying / confrontational approach has been successful Ukraine obtain weapons and financial aid, so I’m not surprised he went to that well….
G. W. Bush did not give Ukraine an “iron-clad security guarantee” (although he hinted at it frequently enough). Neither did Obama or Biden. Would ANY foreseeable president have provided such a guarantee under the present circumstances? I’d like to see the evidence.
Let me suggest that a hypothetical President Harris would not have provided such a guarantee although, like Biden, she might have given some head feints that she would. Note that Bill Clinton provided such assurances (in the Budapest Memorandum). The Budapest Memorandum, not ratified by the Senate, was wishful thinking.
“IOW, you expected him to grovel.”
Arrant nonsense. The deal was already cut. It was Scott Jennings who noted, all he had to do was show up in coat and tie (its the Oval, people), enjoy lunch, and then sign the deal he had already agreed to. That’s not groveling. That’s negotiating in good faith.
He tried a cheap stunt; a bait and switch, apparently hoping that he could use the venue and audience to gain advantage and additional guarantees of money, weapons or troops. Rookie move hardly says it. He shot his dick off.
Trump appears to really want to get this sinkhole war resolved or de-escalated. But I see Zelensky was making noises about return of Crimea. I’m sorry, but that is delusional, and not inspiring.
After weeks of watching Musk run around in a T shirt and weird jacket in the Oval Office I am not sure why people are obsessing over how he dressed. Anyway, at link is the transcript from that part from when Zelensky addresses Vance. So I guess you can look at it through a partisan lens, and to be fair Z’s English is not so good, but its seems pretty fair that Z would ask Vance what he meant by diplomacy, pointing out that Putin had broken prior agreements and was the one who invaded. It’s Vance who then escalates it to claim Z is taking people on a propaganda tour.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-zelenskyy-vance-transcript-oval-office-80685f5727628c64065da81525f8f0cf
Steve
Full transcript at this link. Of note, Trump claims he wont say anything bad about Putin since it would hurt making a deal after a couple days before claiming Z was a dictator and claiming his favorability rating was at 4%.
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-zelensky-transcript-white-house-b2706927.html
“Arrant nonsense.”
Simple observation. Essentially every Republican talking to Trump starts out with a minute or so of groveling first. It’s pretty awful. Watch JD, he has it down pat.
Steve
Steve
Zelensky is a head of state. Period.
Nice try.
@steve
I completely agree. Musk looks like a bum. His son was better dressed than him. One thing I like about President Trump is that he is usually in a business suit (not skinny, not modern), and he wears proper footgear.
Can somebody tell me what are those white soled shoes Congressmen are wearing.
Tasty, could be dress sneakers for men. Older men having to stand, walk, navigate steps without falling. Harder to do with a slippery sole. Theirs might be Cole Haan.
Drew- So is Musk. Period.
I wore a military uniform for over 8 years but really wasn’t fixated on it. Z supposedly wears military clothing all of the time as a symbol of their being at war and supporting the troops. I think this is often kind of fake but by report he does visit front line troops fairly often and he has faced numerous assassination attempts. Doesnt strike me as all that important really but besides Musk’s attire why are we forgetting the proliferation of hats in the oval office, mostly red but some black trucker hats. Not normally part of business attire.
Steve
@Curious, thanks for the response but I very much doubt I’ll ever watch the whole thing. A lot of this is more style than substance, which is more TastyBit’s beat. I’m surprised he hasn’t motioned that black is minimizing and not a particularly good look for Zelensky.
I don’t think Ukraine is asking for an iron-clad security guarantee. He has asked for NATO membership, 200,000 American peacekeeping forces, and nuclear weapons. That’s the public posturing, what he would agree to would be much less. What those positions indicate is that he doesn’t think European security guarantees are sufficient to prevent Russia from re-starting the war.
The mineral agreement in theory increases U.S. ties to Ukraine, though that was ironed-out under the Biden administration, so I don’t think it was intended to mediate any U.S. withdrawal.
If Ukraine is not asking for an iron-clad security guarantee, that would be news to the international media.
In London after the visiting Washington, Zelensky called for “effective security guarantees that will make it impossible for Russian aggression to return”.
It is definitely more then military aid; before the blow-up; the most note worthy news at the press conference was Trump stating he would continue providing military aid to Ukraine.
@Janis
I hope you are well. If a man is too old to wear proper shoes, he is too old to be a Congressman. My dress shoes have leather soles, and they can be slippery until they get broken in. One pair has a rubber insert in the leather sole, and they are lighter than a full leather sole.
@PD Shaw
I expect people to dress appropriately. I am not going to a doctor who is dressed in shorts and flip-flops. If you get paid like a professional, you should dress like a professional.
@steve
Headgear should never be worn indoors, especially at the dinner table. I am not a ball cap type of person, but if it is worn properly, it could be considered appropriate. Unless Zelensky is in the military, he should dress appropriately.
TastyBits: Headgear should never be worn indoors
Headgear.
TastyBits: Unless Zelensky is in the military, he should dress appropriately.
Dress appropriately.
The reporter who brought up Z’s uniform was off camera but was reported to be a man who is a member of the press and presently dating Marjorie Taylor Green.
Churchill really should have worn black.
Adding that IMO Vance would NEVER have challenged Z at the meeting without previous encouragement from Trump.
If Trump didn’t approve that Vance would have been slapped down hard.