I wanted to call your attention to this highly informative post on the history of Poland’s borders from Tomas Pueyo at Uncharted Territories before it becomes inaccessible. Cutting to the chase over the last 500 years the lands in the “European plain” that crosses Europe from northern France to the Urals have changed hands dozens, possibly hundreds of times. Poland is right in the middle of it. Part of the time it was Poland, sometimes it was Germany, occasionally Russia. Here’s a map illustrating the greatest extent of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the 17th century:
For me the point is that this is history but it’s not our history. American history has little to do with the claims and grievances of the various peoples of Europe.
I believe that forcing people from their homes is wrong and I don’t think it makes much difference whether they’re Germans, Poles, or Ukrainians.
Where do you put Indians aka native Americans?
There is a Youtube that has a year by year map for all of Europe. I was surprised at how much land Sweden held at times. I wouldn’t have thought they had the economic output or population for significant expansion. Anyway, Russia killed and deported millions of Ukrainians in the 30s-50s and now they are forcing people out of Eastern Ukraine and once again stealing kids.
One thing a 1648 map doesn’t show is that the border between the Grand Dutchy of Lithuania and the Kingdom of Poland before their union is roughly the same border between Ukraine and Belarus today. Mostly though the borders are not drawn along notions of nationality and reflect feudal type arrangements with shifting personal allegiances.
Its not just to the Urals; the steppe (and its lack of defensive barriers) extends east to Manchuria. That’s how the Mongols Empire conquered all the way to Poland.
One point to highlight in the map is that the area being fought between the Russians and Ukrainians (Crimea, and the northern Black Sea / Sea of Azov coast) weren’t Ukrainian or Russian, but Ottoman or “Crimean Khanate (which is descended from the Mongol empire)”.
What the borders don’t show is this area was mostly depopulated for centuries as it was susceptible to raids because there were no natural defensive barriers. It was only after the Russian empire (with Ukraine as an autonomous part) conquered the Crimean Khanate and pushed the Ottomans out that it was settled by Slavic people (who today we recognize as Russian or Ukrainian). That occurred roughly between American independence and Civil War. That it was “settled” around the time of industrialization is a perculiar similarity to the American experience, and very different from most of Europe.
Yeah, if it is about deep historical claims; neither Ukrainians nor Russians have the best claim; today that would probably be the Crimean Tatars, but even they are settlers. Before them were the Mongols, Byzantine, Rome, and even the ancient Greeks.
Not gonna,
Can’t put them all in one basket.
You could live next door to many tribes quite peacefully, but the Comanche would kill you and take your women.
This is what I don’t understand about Putin, as much as he spent he could have extended Russian influence into Ukraine with leases, treaties and purchases.
Guess he thought it would be easy.
We have trouble of our own and should mind our own business.
Gary,
Putin is responding to American aggression that overthrew Ukraine’s legitimate government in 2014, and then prevented every Russian attempt at a peaceful settlement, especially Minsk I and II and Istanbul 2022, each of which would have left Ukraine intact, except for Crimea.
More to your point, the proximate reason for the American led coup was a trade and loan deal offered by Putin to Yanukovych, which he accepted. The ultimate, however, was a neocon scheme to use the Ukrainian war to break up Russia.
By the way, the 1914 map of Europe is also interesting. The German, Austro-Hungarian, and Russian Empires abutted, and most of the small stuff from 1648 and 2025 didn’t exist.
My major in college was Eastern European area studies, with a minor in Russian. The only thing more confusing to keep track of than the changes along what were the remnants of Mongol conquests in eastern Eurpte was all the changes and evolution of the Holy Roman Empire.
The Poles are a special case. They’ve been around as a distinct ethic group for a very long time, but have been absorbed/partitioned numerous time by outside powers, most notably in the late 1700’s.
So it’s no surprise that Poles today are probably the most pro-US country, seeing us as a guarantor, and that they take security seriously in much more than words compared to pretty much everyone else.
CuriousOnlooker: It was only after the Russian empire (with Ukraine as an autonomous part) conquered the Crimean Khanate and pushed the Ottomans out that it was settled by Slavic people (who today we recognize as Russian or Ukrainian).
The Slavs have occupied what is now Ukraine since early in the first millennium. By 1100 CE, Kievan Rus’ was the largest and most powerful state in Europe.