About That Mandate…

In an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal physician Joseph A. Ladapo makes some remarks about President Biden’s vaccine mandate, some of which strike me as sensible and some of which risk his being shunned in the contemporary form that the “shunning” of the Amish community takes at Facebook, Google, et al. for spreading disinformation. Here’s what strike me as interesting and pretty good sense:

The common argument for vaccine mandates is: You have no right to infect me. But cases are partly driven by asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread—people who are unaware that they even are infected. It isn’t practical to punish adults who have no symptoms. This is why other diseases that can be spread by people without symptoms—such as influenza, genital herpes and hepatitis C—are met with policies like voluntary vaccination drives, screening protocols for sexually transmitted diseases, and clean needle exchange programs for intravenous drug users. Doctors and public health officials used to understand that stopping spread is usually not practical.

Here’s another problem: The vaccines reduce but don’t prevent transmission. Protection from infection appears to wane over time, more noticeably after three to four months, based on a large study of more than 300,000 people in the United Kingdom. As clinical studies from the U.S., Israel, and Qatar show—and many Americans can now personally attest—there is substantial evidence that people who are vaccinated can both contract and contribute to the spread of Covid-19.

qualified by this:

The data still show that people who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to become infected than people who aren’t vaccinated. People who have recovered from Covid-19 appear to have the most protection of all.

Taken together that’s why I believe that COVID-19 is here to stay and we have reached the point in which we are learning to live with the risks it presents. And this strikes me as making a good point:

But these realities aren’t informing vaccine policy. When New York Gov. Kathy Hochul discussed expanding vaccine mandates to state-regulated facilities, she said: “We have to let people know when they walk into our facilities that the people that are taking care of them” are “safe themselves and will not spread this.” In fact, the data say they can and will spread it.

while this echoes a point I’ve made around here:

The response from many vaccine advocates has been to promote boosters, and the momentum behind third shots is outpacing the limited data available. The reality is that a more practical approach to managing Covid requires a diverse set of strategies, including using outpatient therapies.

Yep, medicine is hard and complicated. One size does not fit all. That’s why physicians exist and their jobs haven’t been automated away. This is the part that I think risks getting him “shunned”:

Other medications like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, on which health officials seem determined to close the book, are, in reality, unsettled. Controlled clinical trials have yielded conflicting results, but many physicians with substantial experience treating patients with Covid-19—including members of the Early COVID Care Experts group—have reported low rates of hospitalization and death when using these therapies. Some of these patient cohorts are large and have been published in peer-reviewed journals, such as one study of 717 outpatients published in Travel Medicine and Infectious Disease.

That leaves us with his conclusion which strikes me as combative but not entirely without reason:

Vaccine mandates can’t end the spread of the virus as effectiveness declines and new variants emerge. So how can they be a sensible policy? Is it sensible to consign tens of millions of people to an indeterminate number of boosters and the threat of job loss if it isn’t clear more doses will stop the spread, either?

He neglects to make a point I have made repeatedly here and cannot be answered on an a priori basis but only based on a more empirical approach. Which strategy will actually result in fewer cases of COVID-19 here? A third booster inoculation here for people who’ve already received inoculations, contracted the disease and recovered, or both? Or ensuring that people in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, etc. and the Afghan refugees who are coming here inter alia are inoculated against the disease? I also wonder if we have enough information at this point about the experience with the mRNA vaccines to know whether an inoculation once a year, multiple times per year, or once a month has adverse effects.

I don’t believe that making that decision based on purely political considerations serves us well.

5 comments… add one
  • steve Link

    He is wrong about a number of things, which leads to his faulty conclusions. Particularly this.

    ” In fact, the data say they can and will spread it.”

    You really are less likely to contract covid if you are vaccinated. It may be waning but it is not zero. Now, if you assume an infinite amount of time then yes everyone gets it. IN reality we dont live that long. So if everyone is vaccinated then many fewer have it and it is harder to spread. You could easily live a long time and never have covid.

    He is also wrong about HCQ. As I said earlier there are some more, and probably pretty good studies coming out on Ivermectin. We should wait on those.

    Shunned? Nah, we just realize that the guy now has a permanent job writing for the WSJ if he wants and probably appearances on Fox and the wing nut welfare circuit forever. He is one of the Front Line Doctors, most noted for their beliefs that sex with demons causes problems with lady parts and we are using alien DNA to do something, not really sure what but it is probably bad. Oh, and several of the Frontline Doctors were not even in practice and some were ophthalmologists. Trust me, they arent in the hospital caring for covid pts. In the case of Ladapo last I checked no one was able to confirm that he actually cared for covid pts though he claimed he had. Maybe he did, who knows. I can say it would be really , really easy to find out that I had cared for covid pts.

    Steve

  • PD Shaw Link

    A few days ago, the Lancet published the dissenting opinion from scientists questioning the need for boosters, including two from the FDA who announced their intent to retire in protest. Their analysis of the studies indicated little or no waning in the mRNA vaccines. People vaccinated early have enjoyed 94% effectiveness against severe disease and 82% effectiveness against any infection. People vaccinated later have enjoyed 90% against severe disease, and 95% against any infection. (I’m eye-balling a chart) This could suggest some waning, but it might also simply reflect that people who got vaccinated earlier were at higher risk of exposure and/or complications. Can a third dose boost protection against infection ten percentage points? Would it be measurable? And for how long?

    They mainly want peer-reviewed studies, geared towards determining when and if boosters would be needed and whether it would be better to get the same vaccine or a different one or a different dosage. The charts are the main thing to look at:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext

  • steve, if the number of vaccinations goes up by 5 percentage points, how much will it reduce the number of new cases of COVID-19 and how do you know? It is unlikely to be five percentage points fewer and it almost undoubtedly won’t be more than five percentage points fewer. Network effects just don’t work like that. It could well be zero.

    I think we can stipulate that if 100% of people are vaccinated it would improve things by some amount. What amount? I don’t know. I think we can be pretty confident it won’t reduce the number of new cases to zero. I don’t think we can be even that certain about anything less than 100%.

    I think that more people should get vaccinated. But that won’t eliminate COVID-19. Asymptomatic spread, pre-symptomatic spread, lack of 100% effectiveness of vaccines, the impossibility here of compulsory quarantines, network effects, the list goes on.

  • steve Link

    Dave- Now you sound like the zero covid people. Probably not happening but if we can get everyone vaccinated then can hope for rates similar to other viral illnesses where we have high levels of vaccination. Good enough for me.

    Steve

  • Andy Link

    My non-expert view is that boosters will be necessary. Assuming that is true, the question then becomes a matter of conditions and timing, which are inherently subjective.

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