I think that David Harsanyi summmarizes the present spitting match about immigration pretty well at The Federalist:
It’s true that some Republicans act as if everyone coming over the border is an MS-13 drug mule, while some liberals act as if there is no criminality associated with unregulated immigration, even from a nation experiencing an epidemic of lawlessness and violence. But perhaps the biggest tragedy of the immigration debate is that, despite the acrimony surrounding it, it’s probably the most easily fixed. The majority of Americans still aren’t ideologically rigid on the issue. They’re open to immigration (and to Dreamers), but most also want secure borders. Falsely feeding the dueling perceptions that the United States is a budding fascist state or anarchy without a border create a political climate that makes immigration impossible to fix.
In separating families at the border Republicans mistakenly and reprehensibly think they’ve finally found the lever to wring concessions on immigration from Democrats with. As illustrated by Chuck Schumer’s rejection of a bill to keep migrant families together, keeping families together is a lower priority than retaining a campaign issue.
Kind of a mess of an article that mixes a lot together. I think his heart is kind of in the right place, but gets alto wrong. So, we have this
” even from a nation experiencing an epidemic of lawlessness and violence. ”
Not the case. On a national level crime has been decreasing. Homicides were up in a few areas for 2 years (3?) but dropped last year. We are still well below the levels we had in the 90s.
So, Trump changes policy, there was no new law, and decides to take children away from their families in an effort to get Democrats to give him what he wants, and the fault here lies with Democrats not giving him what he wants. Wow!
Steve
He’s referring to Mexico.
The law as interpreted by Flores v. Reno allows for three alternatives:
1. Releasing families together.
2. Passing a law to allow for family detention.
3. Breaking up families.
The Obama Administration chose #1. That resulted in a substantial surge in the number of minor children being brought into the U. S. Tens of thousands more. The Trump Administration has chosen #3.
I prefer #2.
As to your “Oh wow” if not knuckling under to Trump is a higher priority than keeping families together so much for the moral high ground.
“As to your “Oh wow†if not knuckling under to Trump is a higher priority than keeping families together so much for the moral high ground.â€
Trump is asking Congress to do its job. That’s a hill worth fighting for.
But if that’s a bridge too far in this particular case he can operate by executive order or sign a narrow bill. I think that’s where this is headed.
As for morals, the Democrats are playing for a mid-term issue and deflection from the IG report, which is proving to have multiple layers as time passes. Not in a good sense. Spare me the morals stance.
“As to your “Oh wow†if not knuckling under to Trump is a higher priority than keeping families together so much for the moral high ground.”
I don’t think anyone unwilling to criticize Trump for using children as hostages to get his legislation passed has no place taking about morals.
“As for morals, the Democrats are playing for a mid-term issue”
The Democrats started taking children hostage? I don’t think so. Trump started this (and can stop it if he wants). The Democrats are in the minority and have no ability to pass any legislation. The GOP has planned to play this for midterms all along. Take the kids hostage. If the Democrats don’t agree to any crappy bill that the GOP proposes, then they are the bad guys. Works perfectly as long as your party is full of amoral a**holes who are willing to risk permanently separating children from their families just to pass a bill. Sad to see that you seem so comfortable with this.
Steve
Grr. Meant “any place”.
Steve
Lets see, Feinstein-D introduces bill to end the separation, Schumer (and the rest of Ds) signs on a cosponsor. Evidentially legislation is the way to go. A competing bill is introduced and now legislation is not the answer, only a diktat from the would be Caesar suffices. Which according to the AP is in the works which will turn be denounced as executive overreach, etc.
and we wonder opiods and other psychoactive meds are avidly consumed.
I don’t know whom you’re addressing in your last comment, steve. If it’s me, you should read more carefully. What about “mistakenly and reprehensibly” do you not understand?
You apparently do not understand the notion of a hierarchy of values. Let’s say you have the following values:
– you think that separating a migrant child from his family is wrong
– you don’t want to give Trump anything he wants
– you think that the Trump Administration’s policy gives you a good issue to campaign on in the fall
When you are presented with the alternative of giving Trump something he wants or continuing to have children separated from their parents at the border and you choose to allow children and parents to be separated, what can reasonably be inferred about the relative importance of those values? I do not think you can reasonably conclude that ending the separation of children and parents at the border is your highest priority.
Neither the Bush Administration nor the Obama Administration (which also separated children and parents in small numbers) faced the enormous increase in minor children, whether accompanied by their parents or not, that started during the late Obama Administration and has continued to the present. It was widely reported when it started that word had gotten around Mexico and Central America that children were a free ticket into the United States. Or, in other words, the Obama Administration’s selection of alternative #1 above (referred to by some derisively as “catch and release”) created moral hazard.
I want the Congress to act to correct the situation. If I can’t get that I’d like the Trump Administration to come up with a strategy for not separating children and parents at the border but not returning to releasing migrant families with children on their own recognizance pending determination of their status. What would that be? I have no idea.
Yeah, Trump started all this reprehensible treatment of children:
http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities
You aren’t even trying Drew. The issue is deliberately taking kids away from their parents. Sometimes kids need to be detained, with their family. Kids who come alone may need to be detained. If they come in unexpectedly large numbers, they will be held in less than ideal conditions until better can be found. No one is criticizing Trump for any of that. He is deliberately separating families to leverage a vote that he wants. For people with a working set of morals, that would generally be considered immoral, or since you are now a Trump acolyte, it makes you a bad person.
Dave- I don’t you understand what I wrote. I am not commenting upon conceding to Trump, I am just shocked at your tacit approval of what Trump is doing. Sessions, among others, was quite explicit about what they are doing. They are deliberately separating families hoping that fewer people will come here. They undertook this with minimal (zero?) planning, so they aren’t able to keep track of where kids and parents are going. So you have Mom and Dad back in Guatemala and they don’t know where their kids are. What are the chances they never see those kids again? In your care to avoid criticizing Trump (there are plenty of others dong that so I kind of understand this) you are overlooking truly awful behavior.
“I want the Congress to act to correct the situation. ”
Trump can correct it now, in a minute, with his pen. Also, remember Doug citing that 99% number of asylum seekers returning of their court hearing? There actually was an ICE programs that worked specifically with families. They achieved 99% attendance at court hearings AND at appointments with ICE. Guess who eliminated that program? Wanna bet they blame the Democrats for that also?
Steve
I don’t approve and I don’t see how you can read what I wrote and think that I do.
According to the New York Times 20-40% don’t show up. I suspect the discrepancy can be explained by which population you’re tallying.
I think Pres. Trump and the GoP deserve most of the blame here. No one forced Trump to take the discretionary action to treat every illegal border crossing as a criminal violation. The administration should have known what the effect would be, not just to family separation but also the effect on the criminal justice system from an influx of thousands of new cases – that’s one aspect the media hasn’t really talked about. There is also the fact that criminally charging refugees is, at the very least, not consistent with our responsibilities under the treaties we’ve ratified regarding treatment of potential refugees.
Are the Democrats using this to maximum advantage? Yes, and I’m certain if the roles were reversed, the GoP would be doing the same. I would certainly like to see both parties act in accordance with ethical principles rather than self-interest and this situation is no different. While I see Dave’s point about a hierarchy of principles and agree that the Democrats don’t have those principles aligned as I would personally like, it’s still the case that this situation was entirely created by President Trump’s discretionary action.
More importantly, Democrats are in the minority, there is little they can actually do about actually changing Trump’s policy or the law. The demands from the administration and some in the GoP for the Democrats to fix it are particularly cynical and even more self-serving. Finally, Democratic hypocrisy is still theoretical since there hasn’t been a vote. If the GoP wants to see where Democrats actually stand then they should bring up a bill and let the Democrats filibuster or vote against it.
But all this seems to be overtaken by events at this point as Trump seems to have finally sensed that this was dumb move and reversed course.
“I don’t approve and I don’t see how you can read what I wrote and think that I do.”
OK, I reread what you wrote. I think I am mostly wrong. I apologize for saying that. (Still think the blame should be put specifically on Trump and not generic Republicans. There are plenty of good, decent people in the GOP who opposed this move, but backed Trump on this just because it is the tribal thing to do. Would like to think that is true of people posting here. Not sure.)
Steve
I am blocked on that link. The site I have access to says it was 99% specifically for families.
You’re not trying, steve. You are being a pedant. The issue of children and the rough go they have at borders has been around for quite some time. It’s just a convenient time to make it an issue, unless you approve of Obama’s caged kids in foil wraps. It’s pure politics.
If you can get past your simple minded biases, steve, you might want to take a read.
http://thefederalist.com/2018/06/20/4-things-media-wont-tell-border-crisis/
@steve: I think the 99% figure came from the reports on one specific group, the Family Case Management Program administered by ICE until 2017.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2017/0609/ICE-shutters-helpful-family-management-program-amid-budget-cuts
Since Flores was a legal decision that the government must comply with, is it really possible for Congress to pass legislation to alter it?
I did read that before you put it here. What was going on this time was completely different. This was the deliberate change in policy to separate families that we were not separating before. Pedant? Does that mean you are just deliberately ignorant? Again, you are using percentages for illegal aliens in general. When you look at asylum seekers, the numbers are much different.
Steve