In their editorial on the violence over the weekend, the editors of the Wall Street Journal sound a lot of the themes I did in my post on the subject above:
The violence that broke out in American cities this weekend goes far beyond justified anger at the killing of George Floyd on Monday. The rioters are looting shops and attacking police with impunity, and they threaten a larger breakdown of public order. Protecting the innocent and restoring order is the first duty of government.
The violent scenes in more than 30 cities were the worst in decades. Minneapolis police were overrun on Friday as neighborhoods and a police precinct burned. Los Angeles police were assaulted and their vehicles vandalized and burned. In Milwaukee a 38-year-old police officer was shot and 16 buildings were looted. In Dallas a shopowner trying to defend his property with a machete was stoned, beaten and left bleeding in the street.
Americans watching on TV saw reporters grabbed and pushed by protesters who flashed obscene gestures for the cameras. Police were pelted with rocks and bottles amid “Defund the Police†signs. Mayors across the country set curfews, and in Minneapolis and elsewhere the National Guard was called in.
This was more than spontaneous anger at the grotesque video of a white cop, Derek Chauvin, kneeling on the neck of the African-American Floyd for nearly nine minutes as he pleaded to breathe. Many protests were peaceful. But the riots in many places had the earmarks of planned chaos by those using Floyd as an excuse for criminality.
Gov. Tim Walz blamed agitators from outside Minnesota, including white supremacists and drug cartels, for feeding the violence, though he offered no evidence. Attorney General Bill Barr on Saturday blamed much of the trouble on “anarchistic and far left extremists, using Antifa-like tactics, many of whom travel from out of state to promote the violence.â€
Antifa are loosely affiliated agitators who claim to be anti-fascists. They dress in black and cover their heads, often letting others man the front lines while directing assaults on police from a distance.
Amid this chaos, police in most cities have shown notable discipline. A police car drove into a crowd surrounding it in New York City, but even Mayor Bill de Blasio noted it would not have happened if protesters had not been threatening. The risk is that, as confrontations escalate, some police will lose their cool and someone will be killed, producing another cycle of protest and violence.
Contrast all of this with the progress of the justice system in the Floyd case. Officer Chauvin was charged Friday with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. The Hennepin County district attorney brought charges in record time that he will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and he says he may bring more charges, presumably against one or more of the three other officers involved in Floyd’s arrest.
In other words the judicial system is not the problem. It’s functioning well. Look to the executive and legislative branches for solutions. They have created problems they are failing to deal with. They conclude:
The main victims of a summer of chaos in America will be the poor and minority neighborhoods going up in flames.
Long after the thieves and vandals and the news channels have left the neighborhoods, like those on Chicago’s South and West Sides that are bearing the brunt of the violence and chaos, the burnt out stores and buildings will remain. Stop complaining about “food deserts” while grocery stores are being burnt to the ground. Stop complaining about a lack of jobs when businesses are driven away.
“In other words the judicial system is not the problem.”
I don’t think that’s quite right. The judicial system seems to work when there is video evidence and that evidence is made public and gets some traction such that it can’t be ignored. I doubt anything would have been done or would have happened with these officers’ actions on Mr. Floyd had there not been a video of it. Same goes with the Aubery case – the police had the video and did nothing until after the video was leaked and became public. It was only then that they decided his murderers deserved to be arrested.
Ya don’t say.
The police are not the judicial system. I agree that policing has a problem. I just heard, for example, that neck holds have been an accepted police practice in Minneapolis for some time. That’s nuts. I’m not a trained medical professional but I have extensive training in choke holds. Applying blood chokes for more than a few seconds risks killing the person. That’s what happened.
Policing is executive branch.
“neck holds have been an accepted police”
Makes you wonder how many other police practices need to be rethought.
Perhaps Ontario, Canada can serve as a model. They have an independent civilian “special investigations unit” that is in charge of reviewing and prosecuting any incidents where use of police force results in serious injury or death.
We have that in Chicago, too. It was through the Civilian Review Board that the present mayor came to prominence.
“In other words the judicial system is not the problem.”
If we had a video of someone slowly killing a police officer over 9 minutes how long would it take for them to be arrested? Howling should it take? How long until the other 3 people who helped kill the officer until they were arrested? Your point about having a problem with policing is correct, but we also have a problem with the justice system. If the justice system had responded as quickly for Floyd as they would have for an officer, or anyone else, do you think we have these riots? Are they as bad? We will never know but I am inclined to think not.
“Amid this chaos, police in most cities have shown notable discipline.”
Yes to this. Most police are good, decent people quite competent and dedicated to what they do. However, when the minority that are bad do something awful they are protected from the consequences of their actions. I thoroughly agree that if this was not recorded not much happens to the police involved. Administrative leave with full pay for a few weeks. AS Andy notes, even if it is recorded some police and justice officials will sit on it if they can get away with it.
“Applying blood chokes for more than a few seconds risks killing the person.”
As a corpsman we had to restrain dozens of psychotic, drunk and high on drugs patients. We knew that back in the early 70s. We also knew that if you sat on top of someone they have trouble breathing. You get people restrained, get on cuffs or restraints on arms, legs if needed, and get off of them. If they really work at it they can still hurt themselves, maybe even hurt you a little bit, but you dont risk killing them.
Steve
“Antifa are loosely affiliated agitators…”
That is fundamentally wrong. Recent events prove Antifa has a national level coordinating system. They also have cells in every college and university in the country. One of the agitators in Minneapolis was a cop, caught on tape, and identified. So the cells even extend into police departments.
Antifa thinks it can spark a socialist revolution (the actual goal of all anarchists in history), but I doubt the country is ready for than, not even the black underclass.
Reading up on it, the biggest difference is Ontario’s board reports up to the provincial government, so there is more independence from the subject of its investigation.
It is not a panacea; it discourages attempts at covering up issues. To prevent issues requires changes in the management of policing.
Dave’s first comment in the thread is spot on. The time for criticizing the cop has passed. His transgression is obvious. If the justice system cannot deal with it equitably the issue can be raised again.
What is transpiring now is simply opportunistic thugs and organized fanatics taking advantage of the situation. Bob is correct that Antifa is deeply influential here. I cannot explain the bizarre motivations of those not willing to acknowledge the obvious. Blind partisanship is the easy answer, but it must go deeper.
Yeah. Uncoordinated. Yeah……..
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/its-setup-mysteriously-staged-bricks-appear-throughout-major-protest-cities
The left cannot acknowledge this because these are their pepes.
“The police are not the judicial system. I agree that policing has a problem.”
The decision to not charge officers with what would normally be considered criminal acts is a judicial problem. The amount of deference that prosecutors give to police officers accused of misconduct is a judicial problem.
No, it’s not. It’s a prosecutor problem. If judges overrule convictions despite evidence clear enough to persuade a jury, that would be a judicial problem but I honestly don’t believe that’s what’s happening.
The question is why, year after year, do black voters keep electing and re-electing the same mayors and states attorneys who refuse to reform? Chicago is a good example. Black voters voted overwhelmingly in the primary for the most reform-oriented candidate (so did I, unlike most whites). In the general election, too, they voted for the more reform-oriented candidate. She was elected but so far, at least from my point of view, has been a disappointment. To reform you’ve got to be willing to stand up to the unions.
People won’t acknowledge an event having organized thuggery behind it, like the leftist Antifa group, until it hits their neighborhoods and threatens them personally. Maybe this is because partisan blinders has produced a severe case of intellectualized myopia, where setting fires, destroying the center of a town and people’s livelihoods is justified, in lieu of other abuses cited, whether they date back days to many years. I guess, in these people’s minds, playing revenge forward somehow reverses, corrects and then mollifies simmering ills, without leaving a residue of anger igniting the need for a similar payback by those who were needlessly harmed.
Your comment about the judicial system not being the problem came on the heels of a quoted passage that didn’t mention the judiciary at all, but discussed the decision to prosecute the cops. That gave me the impression you were talking about prosecution.
So I think we are in agreement – the problem is not an inability of the judiciary to try and adjudicate charges against police officers, the problems primarily happen before that stage.
“People won’t acknowledge an event having organized thuggery behind it, like the leftist Antifa group”
No. A lot of people on the left noted that the looters looked very organized. They had cars and vans waiting and when one filled another took its place. The criminals were organized, much more so than the police. As a lot of people noted they had hundreds of police hanging out where the protestors were sitting around chanting. There were almost no police in the areas where they were looting. (Maybe they didnt have enough police and/or National Guard so I would hold off criticizing them too much for this right now, but this sounds similar to what Dave described in Chicago. Looters flagrantly stealing with no police around.)
However, this doesnt sound like Antifa, an anarchist group. They destroy stuff. However, you ought to at least catch a few before you start making claims they are behind all of this. As far as conspiracies go I guess this is better than claiming Soros is doing everything. The guy is in his 80s after all, but there should still be at least some evidence. All I am suggesting is that you provide some evidence.
Dave- I thought prosecutors were considered officers of the court. If they are not part of the judicial system then in this instance they are not the main problem. We are still stuck with the judicial system being much more likely to find minorities guilty of the same crimes that white people commit, especially drug related crime.
Steve
Steve
All lawyers are officers of the court. That doesn’t make them part of the judiciary.
I reviewed an audio/video timeline from NYT audio of Floyd’s death from the Police.
What is striking is one of the officers restraining him asked twice whether Floyd needed to be rolled to the side. Another officer worried Floyd may have excited delirium. But nothing came out of those thoughts.
There didn’t seem to be any procedure that made Chauvin in charge. They didn’t seem to change tactics when they discovered Floyd was unresponsive. No one seemed to be continuously monitoring Floyd.
Beyond hiring people unfit for the situation, there seems to be a training element with lack of communication, unclear who is in charge, loss of situational awareness.
I wonder if policing can benefit from applying principles of crew resource management to situations like this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
A friend on Facebook posted this news story about a 2016 incident in Texas. This guy calls the cops for help. He’s cuffed, gets his legs zipped tied and a knee in the back. They laugh at him while he dies. Nothing happens to them. It took three years to get the body camera footage released.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/
So steve has the answer. Its the cops fault the looters loot. They just weren’t prepared?! Reminds me of the housing crisis. Not the borrowers fault……..the lenders. Steve and personal responsibility seem to be the null set. And there you have it. And its not Antifa, even though there are numerous videos floating around that are proof positive. Bizarre.
Jan – you are on it, as usual. But so much nicer than me. I guess that’s what working in a steel mill for 6 years does……..
‘Maybe this is because partisan blinders has produced a severe case of intellectualized myopia, where setting fires, destroying the center of a town and people’s livelihoods is justified, in lieu of other abuses cited, whether they date back days to many years.’
Every time I see a call for reparations, or anything claiming any response to a perceived injustice for long-ago wrongs is justified, I always think of the old Serbian war cry justifying attacks and atrocities on Turks and other Muslims; ‘Remember Kosovo!’ A battle that was fought and lost in 1389 to the Ottomans, effectively ending medieval Serbian independence.
If one goes back far enough, one can always find a long-ago wrong to justify the foulest of deeds. That Jews killed Christ has an even older provenance.
Hmm, I have gone out of my way to make it clear, I can go back over these old posts and show multiple instances, to claim that there is no justification for the violence and looting. Explaining that if you keep murdering unarmed black people and that might lead to them not trusting the police requires a bare minimum of nuance and understanding of people.
Prepared? You know, you are just like every other person who never served in the military or put heir own life at risk. You just wave your hands and people show up to protect you. In reality it takes time to get people into position and prepare them. Police, National Guard, etc dont want to be put in a position where they are severely outnumbered and they have to shoot fellow citizens. I am sure that you and jan are all for opening fire, but you wont bear the consequences.
“And its not Antifa, even though there are numerous videos floating around ”
Some guy in a black hoodie equals Antifa? Please. Lets have some arrests and actual proof. According to you guys they are out there leading all the looting. Must be thousands. Surely you can catch 3 or 4. While you are at it catch some of those people committing voting fraud. Grab some unicorns too, or any other made up creature you want, but I would prefer unicorns.
Steve
I used to live in a community called Stonebridge CC. Naperville-Aurora border. Great golf course and community. Held both senior and ladies tour events. Arnold Palmer. Annika Sorenstam. Michael Jordan played in every ProAm. etc etc Great people. Good place, especially for kids.
The deal that was cut with the developer was the kids got to go to Naperville schools (good), but the property tax grift went to Aurora. The poor step child.
Last night, in downtown Aurora, just 10-15 minutes away, they had the looting thing. We have friends in Stonebridge. We keep in touch. They are horrified. The exodus is on. Its accelerated, fueled also by this brain dead idiot Pritsker and his tax policies. We selfishly want them to come to SC to put the band back together, but many consider FL or AZ. This is real world, people. It will lay waste to a valuable asset in IL. Steve would be proud.
These are the real taxpaying class. In between. $150-$250K. They are out of there. Fed up. Done. Finished. IL will be left with the ultras, and the dregs. Good luck to the ultras; this is want you want. I pity the tweeners who are stuck (Dave). Figure it out people.
………………….
We mortgaged a home for the first time in decades. It was free money. 1.85% for 7 yrs, and then the mortgage tax deduction. We of course capped it at the $750K level. We could retire it on a moments notice if rates rose. When are the lefties of the world going to wake up and realize that all they decry is given by the government they worship? Its insanity.
Vote Democrat at your personal peril.
Partisanship seems to make them mind numbingly stupid.
Drew, I find comfort in your posts. They are grittier than mine, conveying a humorous, sarcastic clarity that makes so much sense in these senseless times.
Much like you I’m a hands on person, learn by doing rather than looking up statistics or abiding by theoretical information and consensus thinking. That’s why when my eyes see wild crowds tearing up stores, hitting people trying to stop them, spray painting FU obscenities on everything in sight, wearing BLM & Antifa t-shirts, my mind begins to blaze when I read people offering platitudes or deflecting blame onto others rather than directly at the perpetrators. I’m tired of Dem partisans twisting facts, dispelling truth as nothing but conspiracies, the MSM filtering out or mocking what doesn’t suit theIr pc narrative in an attempt to remake and mold this country into an image “they†want and envision as socially acceptable.
More people are going to have to draw lines, and say “enough!†if they want to effectuate changes for the better.
“I’m tired of Dem partisans twisting facts, dispelling truth as nothing but conspiracies,”
I am just as tired of you guys making up stuff because it is convenient. When asked for evidence you almost never have any. We have this thing called the internet. You can find the evidence if it exists. You cant find it because it doesnt.
I will also have to say that it is pretty bizarre to think that everyone on the left wants to have looting and rioting. Even when we say we oppose it you stick to your false beliefs, but since you dont need evidence of anything to support any belief I guess that is at least consistent.
Steve
Organized? Antifa? Nah. That’s crazy talk.
https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/06/01/pittsburgh-anarchist-blamed-rioting-turns/
Behind paywall, but found link at Post-Gazette. Probably better source anyway. Says nothing about Antifa or about being an organized effort. Looks like one angry white guy. Don’t worry, in 50 years he will be an angry white guy watching Fox. You need to activate, very strongly and bigly your justice department to go find them, just like they found all those voters committing fraud.
https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2020/06/01/pittsburgh-riots-protests-Brian-bartels-police-car-SUV-fire-george-floyd/stories/202006010073
Steve, have you read any Russia probe documents beIng declassified – how swore testimonies do a 180 from those spewed out on CNN, MSNBC? Are you aware of the Horowitz Report on the erroneous nature of the FISA warrants? Have you followed the Flynn case, how his trial was flagrantly processed, including the omission of Brady material, missing 302 notes? The entire Mueller Investigation was a ruse, a farce….but not a peep out of Dems acknowledging the rotten players trying to undo what used to be a peaceful transition of power from one party to another party.
Then you have Biden being propped up, despite obvious mental decline. What about Biden’s unsavory threats and family connections to Ukraine. There are recordings, documents emerging showing how corrupt he was. But, only crickets on MSM news. What about his open armed behavior with China, that astounding speech made in 2011 where he was encouraging China to become an influencing factor in this country – education, labs etc.?
All I ever hear from you, though, are snide Trump remarks, mostly superficially mocking him. However, many of the more egregious accusations have proven to be falsehoods. The latest being the media screeching about tear gas being used on protesters to clear Trump’s walk thru Lafayette Park. Park officials have since denied tear gas was used. The constant toxic attacks on this administration is so far afield from what other presidents have experienced. IMO, the Dems have done nothing but bring unnecessary foot dragging in appointment approvals, senseless obstruction, a fickle and costly impeachment, willing to exploit a financial downturn, by the House’s submission of a hopelessly politicized aid bill — all to bog down Trump’s re-election odds.
Are you aware that Horowitz is clearly a partisan journalist and every piece he published was fisked and found wanting? That reading those testimonies that are actually not 180 turns? I barely follow there Flynn stuff as he admitted that he lied. You guys impeached Clinton for lying. Of course Flynn is your guy. Mueller? An honorable man who served his country well, unlike your Mr Bone Spurs. He clearly found that Truml ordered stuff for which he should have been impeached, but his staff didnt carry it out. His conversation with the Ukraine president should have been enough.
Trump is clearly in mental decline. What about Trump having actual companies working in China. I believe, could be wrong, that Ivanka still does. No one has shown that Biden has done anything illegal. (Would I like it if politicians kids didnt get positions because their parents are politicians? Sure. Cn we get rid of Jared and Ivanka?) Ever notice all the wonderful things Trump says about Ji Xinping?
“All I ever hear from you, though, are snide Trump remarks”
I do feel bad about that sometimes since you and Drew never said anything bad or snarky about Obama. That aside I often criticize specific policy actions he makes. I also criticize his lack of leadership and his inability or unwillingness to work with people who do not agree with him. I think his lack of character and constant lying is a negative.
” Park officials have since denied tear gas was used. ”
The Epsiocopal Bishop said that her people, who were cleared out so Trump could have his photo op, thought they used tear gas. (Question. Why didnt they just ask them to move? They also shot flash bangs. Why didnt they just ask ministers to move?)
“appointment approvals” Merrick Garland name mean anything? McConnell held up dozens of appointments in 2016 so they could be GOP judges. You guys actually won this issue since McConnell is an unprincipled power broker, and you still whine about this. Incredible.
“senseless obstruction” Ever heard of the Tea Party?
“costly impeachment” Wonder who started the impeachment game? The name Clinton mean anything?
” hopelessly politicized aid bill” You think it was just a coincidence that the tax bill harmed blue states? Could that bill have been politicized? Please. Every tax and spending bill is politicized.
“all to bog down Trump’s re-election odds.”
Again, I do feel awful about this. The GOP never did anything to hurt Obama’s re-election efforts so this has clearly been unfair.
Steve
Oh please, it’s always the same – an instantaneous default rushing to say what a terrible time Obama had with the opposition party. Of course, he was able to get most of his government appointments through within his first year – something that would have been magical for Trump to have achieved. He also had very few leaks from hostile Bush administration holdovers, unlike what plagued Trump from bureaucratic remnants of the Obama Administration..
Of course Obama‘s days in office were helped by a fawning press, few press conferences, the ability to surveil reporters from the NYT, Fox, and even the AP with relatively little backlash. Obama’s WH was so non-transparent that everything was carefully scripted for public consumption, photos were only allowed to be taken by a WH photographer, not the free press, giving his administration the title of the least transparent presidency to date. Obama was also able to fire ambassadors at will, fired or stonewalled the efforts of IGs, leading to over half of the country’s IGs to write a joint letter of grievances to Eric Holder’s DOJ. No problem, though as there was scant press coverage of this, as there was dealing with an unprecedented letter written by some 20 on-the-ground analysts, complaining their info on the growth of ISIS was being changed to fit the narrative wanted by the WH. Fast and Furious was also able to die on the vine, as was Lois Lerner’s IRS tax exemption manipulations, along with the mysterious disappearance of her government hard drives.
In fact, there were many irregularities in the Obama Administration that were shelved, downplayed, or foot-dragged forever, causing any issue to lose their time-sensitive relevance and thus public interest. I won’t even go into HRC’s illegal server which Obama pleaded ignorance knowing anything about – except there was the matter of the discovery of their correspondence with him using another screen name.
Basically Steve, I’m sure Trump would immediately and wholeheartedly, exchange whatever hassles, unfairness Obama is said to have endured, with his own experiences and travails of hostility, obstruction, false accusations these last and long 3 1/2 long.
“Of course, he was able to get most of his government appointments through within his first year – something that would have been magical for Trump to have achieved. ”
And then McConnell took over so as a percentage Obama had fewer approved. Also, remember Merrick Garland? Finally, it was very well documented that the Trump admin was slow in naming people.
Its? Obama fired only one. Trump 4. (Everyone fires IGs when they take over. Reagan fired all of them.) That letter? Yes, they were unhappy with some access. A bill was introduced to change that but failed in the GOP Senate.
“written by some 20 on-the-ground analysts, complaining their info on the growth of ISIS was being changed to fit the narrative wanted by the WH. Fast and Furious was also able to die on the vine, as was Lois Lerner’s IRS tax exemption manipulations, along with the mysterious disappearance of her government hard drives.”
Lets just take one of these since it would take too long and no matter what I write you wont believe any evidence anyway. Lois Lerner. You do realize that investigation was kept open. The Trump DOJ got to investigate it? What happened? They dropped all charges. So by your standards the Trump DOJ is also in on the anti-Trump conspiracy? Seriously? See how bizarre your claims become?
” HRC’s illegal server :
Lead the headlines for months. The biggest story in the week before the election. But they were all out to hurt Trump! Sure.
“his own experiences and travails of hostility, obstruction, false accusations these last and long 3 1/2 long.”
All of which he has brought on himself. You had McConnell who really is a gifted power broker and master of the Senate. His obstruction was much more effective than anything Trump has seen from the Dems who are generally not that well coordinated. The courts are changed for the next 30 years. Everything else Trump couldn’t pass, even when he had majorities in both houses, is largely due to his inattention and incompetence. As Drew liked to point out Obama couldn’t make a deal with the other party because he was incompetent at it. Well, same is true of Trump. No ability at all, or interest it seems, to work with anyone who doesnt actively fawn all over him.
Steve