Building What Sort of Nation?

This morning, after the obligatory sideswipe at the Tea Party movement, Tom Friedman gets to the meat of his column:

We need to raise gasoline and carbon taxes to discourage their use and drive the creation of a new clean energy industry, while we cut payroll and corporate taxes to encourage employment and domestic investment. We need to cut Medicare and Social Security entitlements at the same time as we make new investments in infrastructure, schools and government-financed research programs that will spawn the next Google and Intel. We need to finish our work in Iraq, which still has the potential to be a long-term game-changer in the Arab-Muslim world, but we need to get out of Afghanistan — even if it entails risks — because we can’t afford to spend $190 million a day to bring its corrupt warlords from the 15th to the 19th century.

The emphasis is mine. I agree with a lot of that but let’s focus on the highlighted part.

Tom Friedman has made it pretty clear what sort of infrastructure work he favors: he’s written repeatedly with effusive praise of China’s gleaming brand new airports and Beijing’s highspeed rail. I have no way of knowing for certain but I strongly suspect that the airports he’s so fond of are used mostly by foreigners and wealthy Chinese. According to Gallup in a given year about 44% of Americans fly somewhere. What percentage of Chinese fly in a given year? At least a sixth of Chinese people are living on $1.25 a day. Not likely air passengers. My suspicion would that that the number of Chinese who fly in a given year amount to percentages in the single digits.

At least one Chinese scholar considers Beijing’s highspeed rail system an expensive boondoggle. 94% of Chinese people live on about a third of China’s land area (the area on the coast). Highspeed rail might make sense in a densely populated area like that but makes a lot less sense for tying the coastal areas to China’s mostly uninhabited (and uninhabitable) interior or to tie New York to Los Angeles.

I’m concerned that what Mr. Friedman esteems is something more akin to the old Orient Express where royalty and the ultra-wealthy rubbed elbows in luxurious comfort. Its modern re-imagining is pictured above. What ordinary people experience is something much closer to an old Greyhound Bus terminal so we shouldn’t be particularly surprised, as flying has become more ordinary for ordinary Americans, that our airports have come more to resemble those terminals than the bright shiny monuments to official excess that China’s new airports do. Not to mention the entire cities without residents.

Unless he means something very different than what one would typically understand by “new investments…in schools”, e.g. spending more money on education, I think there’s very little evidence that the problems we face can be addressed by doing that. According to UNESCO the U. S. ranks second (to Norway) in per capita spending on education and has an average 12 years of education per student, the highest in the world (I’m still trying to uncover the median years of education per student). Our per capita spending is larger than Germany’s, France’s, or Japan’s, and it’s nearly an order of magnitude greater than China’s. Is our problem that we’re not spending enough or that we’re not getting value for our money? If it’s the latter “new investments” won’t address the problem.

How will additional spending on education reach the 40% of students in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles who either fail to graduate from high school or don’t graduate on time?

“Government-financed research programs” didn’t spawn the current Google or Intel; defense spending with very specific, concrete objectives did. This is not to say that I don’t think that government can play a valuable role in fostering the technologies that will midwife the next big thing. I see very little evidence that research programs have returned much but I think the evidence that we’ve reaped enormous rewards from mass engineering programs, e.g. the space program, the Internet, is undeniable.

Where Mr. Friedman sees necessary infrastructure investment and vital research I see porkbarrel politics and grants for the politically connected. My idea of how we should be spending our infrastructure dollars is on 21st century telecommunications and energy infrastructure, the things that will make the technologies and industries of the 21st century possible.

Which brings us to an important question: who decides what sort of nation we will be building? Technocratic planning will inevitably transmogrify into Lysenkoism and doubling down on existing industries and technologies for reasons of political expediency.

The old, antique, obsolete form of government we had until 70 or 80 years ago here in the United States wasn’t intended to make us the wealthiest or most powerful nation in the world. Its intent was to make us the freest one. Wealth and power have been the byproducts of that objective.

Over the period of the last fifty or sixty years we’ve made enormous strides in extending the blessings of that liberty to all of our citizens. That simply wouldn’t have happened without the intervention of the federal government. In my view the political struggle in which we are now engaged is a struggle to determine whether more intervention from the federal government will bring us even greater prosperity with still more freedom or kill the goose that has laid the golden eggs and make us both poorer and less free than we have been. There’s a genuine difference of opinion on this question and the facts of the matter remain in dispute.

37 comments… add one
  • Icepick Link

    I’m concerned that what Mr. Friedman esteems is something more akin to the old Orient Express where royalty and the ultra-wealthy rubbed elbows in luxurious comfort.

    -and-

    My suspicion would that that the number of Chinese who fly in a given year amount to percentages in the single digits.

    I bet that Tom Friedman wouldn’t see a problem with either. He’s all for the rest of us living frugally while he and his friends live better than Pharaoh. (Pharaoh lacked First Class airline tickets, and good brandy. Or any brandy.)

    For example, I bet those extra carbon taxes he favors would cost the bottom half of the American citizens far more than they’d recoup from the reduced payroll taxes. Not just on their own energy usage but also from the added costs to any goods or services that transport material or use energy. In short, anything except a prostitute that works in easy walking distance is going to cost more, and she’ll see no reason not to jack up (a-hem) her rates to pay for her increased costs of living.

    But for Friedman’s class of friends those energy taxes won’t really make much of a difference one way or another. Hell, their pools are probably already heated with solar panels just so they can congratulate themselves for their environmental friendliness while flying to Paris on private jets. Tom Friedman really hates the working class. And the working girls.

    We need to raise gasoline and carbon taxes to discourage their use and drive the creation of a new clean energy industry….

    And then there’s this nonsense. A great many of our economic problems now come from government actions meant to foster some economic sector or activity over another. How is adding even more artificial incentives supposed to make up for the collosal cluster fuck that government has made of health care, housing, finance, transportation, energy, education, etc, etc. More distortions won’t help.

    Where Mr. Friedman sees necessary infrastructure investment and vital research I see porkbarrel politics and grants for the politically connected.

    -and-

    Technocratic planning will inevitably transmogrify into Lysenkoism and doubling down on existing industries and technologies for reasons of political expediency.

    Again, I doubt Friedman will have a problem with this – after all the people that will benefit are the “best” people, those in his circle of friends.

    In my view the political struggle in which we are now engaged is a struggle to determine whether more intervention from the federal government will bring us even greater prosperity with still more freedom or kill the goose that has laid the golden eggs and make us both poorer and less free than we have been. There’s a genuine difference of opinion on this question and the facts of the matter remain in dispute.

    I don’t think there’s much dispute about it. It’s hard to see how the government groping five year-olds and spending trillions to bail out the richest of the rich can possibly end with either liberty for all or prosperity for anyl but the few.

  • Icepick Link

    More Friedman: Obama deserves much more credit than he has received for stabilizing the economy and reviving the auto industry.

    Stabilizing the economy at 9.5% U-3 and about 17% U-6. Not counting all the people that have dropped out of the labor pool! And I bet Friedman doesn’t know about this language

    We have determined that our disclosure controls and procedures and our internal control over financial reporting are currently not effective. The lack of effective internal controls could materially adversely affect our financial condition and ability to carry out our business plan.

    concerning the salvation of the auto industry. Nor would he have any idea how sickening it is.

  • steve Link

    “The old, antique, obsolete form of government we had until 70 or 80 years ago here in the United States wasn’t intended to make us the wealthiest or most powerful nation in the world. Its intent was to make us the freest one. ”

    Maybe you can make a case that was true with the Founders, though given their preservation of slavery some might argue it. We benefited from having lots of free land and lots of natural resources. We were also pretty well protected from serious attempts at war upon us. We also had constant influxes of cheap labor. We became wealthy for a lot of reasons, but I am not sure it was because we were the most free.

    We did have a Constitution that allowed us to work towards freedom. We also had a set of ideals at our founding that promoted liberty, even if it was not existent for most people at our founding. We were willing to die for it in a Civil War. So we get lots of credit, for working towards freedom, mostly through government activities, though funded by the economic success of the private sector.

    Going forward, we should keep government out of direct business involvement. What we need to recognize is that the speed of change is accelerating. To compensate, we need social nets to insure that people are not bankrupted during the more frequent periods of unemployment and job retraining. We need to make sure that have good ways to quickly retrain, which will mean remodeling our education system. We need to keep ahead on infrastructure in areas like communications, as you noted. Last of all, business is not particularly good at or interested in basic research. We should accept that there will be some waste in basic research, but we need it to stay ahead.

    Steve

  • This is not to say that I don’t think that government can play a valuable role in fostering the technologies that will midwife the next big thing. I see very little evidence that research programs have returned much but I think the evidence that we’ve reaped enormous rewards from mass engineering programs, e.g. the space program, the Internet, is undeniable.

    The California Stem Cell Initiative.

    Government picking winners and losers is a problematic process in that industrial policy is really a top-down driven model and it usually fails because those at the top are never in a position to possess all the relevant knowledge they need to make accurate decisions.

    Which brings us to an important question: who decides what sort of nation we will be building? Technocratic planning will inevitably transmogrify into Lysenkoism and doubling down on existing industries and technologies for reasons of political expediency.

    Exactly right.

  • Icepick Link

    To compensate, we need social nets to insure that people are not bankrupted during the more frequent periods of unemployment and job retraining. We need to make sure that have good ways to quickly retrain, which will mean remodeling our education system.

    Most people can’t quickly retrain. Seriously, intelligence is normally distributed, and learning a new & worthwhile career isn’t easy or quick for most people.

    And what good is it anyway? When I was retraining myself (it did me no good) I knew people that were already retraining for the second time – and one guy that was retraining for the third time. That’s three and four “careers” since the end of 2006.

    My favorite story was the guy that retrained to be a truck driver. This was before the world fell off a cliff in Sept/Oct 2008. This guy found work driving for a national firm. He relocated to Denver. And after six weeks or so on the job the company announced they were going to lay off 25% of all their drivers. First in, first out, and time to retrain again. Oops.

    I know another guy that was so desparate for work he started looking for a job driving fuel trucks in Iraq. By then he couldn’t get those jobs because other more experienced drivers were snatching up what little was available.

    There just isn’t enough economic activity anymore to create new jobs. Basically, you’re in or you’re out now. Those of us that are out are completely fucked and there’s nothing we can do about it. Retrain? Companies only want people with experience. NO ONE hires entry level people anymore. And even if one has experience, when jobs open up the companies only want to interview people that already have work. Even convenience stores don’t have turn-over problems these days.

    Here’s another example of how bad it is. Earlier this year some company announced they would have 40 opening for their operation down in south Polk County Florida. Basically it was the middle of nowhere. They announced on a Sunday that they would be taking resumes and applications on Monday. I saw it on the local news at 11 PM. They had over 1000 people show up. None of the jobs were likely to pay more than $15/hr, if that. Middle of nowhere, announced on a Sunday, middling pay at best, and 1000 people showed up teh next day for 40 positions.

    In that environment companies are correct to find any excuse they can to cut down the resumes they need to look at – including not even bothering to talk to anyone currently unemployed.

    The only new jobs likely to open up are wiping the dirty asses of senile old folk and cleaning bed pans for minimum wage. Not much demand for retraining to do that. But I’m not likely to be able to pay off the debt I incurred learning mathematics and acturial science and financial modelling and IT and whatever other damned boondoggle of a career I try to train for next. There just aren’t enough jobs, and I seriously doubt there will be any time soon.

    Education isn’t going to save people from economic dire straights, and it isn’t going to save the country. It’s just another way for the pols to poor money into public employee unions and create capital projects that they can use to funnel money to their cronies. Assume every time that a pol talks about the need for more education, especially more math, science and enginnering, that they’re just looking to screw those of you still left paying taxes out of more of your cash.

  • We benefited from having lots of free land and lots of natural resources. We were also pretty well protected from serious attempts at war upon us. We also had constant influxes of cheap labor. We became wealthy for a lot of reasons, but I am not sure it was because we were the most free.

    200 years ago Mexico had a higher GDP/cap than the US and they too had lots of free land and lots of natural resources. While culture and governance models don’t explain everything, they do have some effect.

  • steve Link

    @Tango- Agreed. I think I overstated the case a bit. I do wonder if a relatively honest government matters more than the details of how it governs, excluding extremes of totalitarian governments. Might explain Singapore.

    Steve

  • michael reynolds Link

    200 years ago Mexico had a higher GDP/cap than the US and they too had lots of free land and lots of natural resources.

    Gee, I wonder if the fact that stole roughly half their country had any effect ?

  • I do wonder if a relatively honest government matters more than the details of how it governs, excluding extremes of totalitarian governments. Might explain Singapore.

    I think that’s important. Honest interpretation of government rules. Legal stability. Low costs of government with respect to doing business.

    Gee, I wonder if the fact that stole roughly half their country had any effect ?

    No, that wouldn’t do it because we’re talking about a per capita wealth measure. The culprit was a two century trend of growth rates being just a bit smaller than those experienced in the US. Compounding a growth rate that is 7/10ths of one percent, for instance, less than the US over 240 years results in a the US economy, on a per capita basis, being 5.3x larger than the Mexican per capita figures, which fairly closely matches the real GDP/cap comparisons which show the US figure is 5.1x larger.

    Now we can debate WHY the Mexican gdp/cap growth rate was less than the US but the powerful lesson that I believe is buried in this historical example is the power of compounding. Waving off lower growth rates as not being that important and willing to sacrifice growth in exchange for wealth distribution will result, if the experiment plays out long enough, in fairly significant cross-country disparities.

    As for stealing the land from Mexico, maybe Mexico should call the police is there really was theft involved. When territory is gained from warfare that gain is not stealing.

  • I do wonder if a relatively honest government matters more than the details of how it governs, excluding extremes of totalitarian governments. Might explain Singapore.

    I’ve been thinking about his some more wondering how to test the hypothesis. Would Transparency International’s metrics be a good proxy variable for honest government? Check out this map. What jumps out to me is the Anglosphere and Western Europe + Japan + Chile (Univ. of Chicago experiment) + Singapore. Singapore certainly borrowed a lot from the English, rather than the Malaysian or Chinese, model of public governance. India has the same legacy but it doesn’t execute the ideal with the same vigor as we see in less corrupt countries.

    So, would your model posit that an honest communist government which worked to enforce a classless society where wealth was distributed equally would result in a vigorous economy? That doesn’t ring true to me. Also, I’m not sure how one could maintain such a society while allowing freedom to flourish in that those who feel that they are contributing more than their fair share would be most likely to leave while those who are taking more than their fair share would be most inclined to stay. Eventually the system either collapses or it suffers degradation in growth rate by the reduction of the human capital present in the society.

    I think that we can get closer to the “truth” if we consider the problem in terms of expected values. With freedom being encouraged people will succeed and fail. There is a lower bound to failure but there is no upper bound to success, so as people exercise their freedom and we calculate the costs of those who fail against the benefits to those who succeed, the totals for success outweigh the costs of failure. If we restrict freedom then we put a floor under failure and the cost of implementing that floor tends to put a ceiling on success in that marginal cases tend to be dissuaded from embarking on their gambles.

    I’m of the opinion that Dave’s formulation “Its intent was to make us the freest one. Wealth and power have been the byproducts of that objective” captures an essential process at work, though not the only process, for if we look at a country like Liberia, which began with a constitution modeled on the principles underlying the American constitution, we see that economic and cultural success is not directly tied to living in a “proposition nation.”

  • john personna Link

    Dave, have you ever seen this old essay?

    http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1029-07.htm

    It is written by Jerry Taylor (then director of natural resource studies at the Cato Institute) and Dan Becker (then director for the Sierra Club’s global warming and energy program).

    Strange allies, but I like their conclusion:

    “A good energy bill would remove subsidies and market distortions so that energy technologies could compete based on their merits, not political expediency.”

    If we had sense (if Friedman had sense), we’d put on a light but increasing energy tax, and then let the market find solutions. If that really was high speed rail, so be it, but don’t force it.

    Part of our problem is that we have been spendthrifts, trying to solve every energy and technology problem with a carrot. Carrots cost money. The stick is cheaper, and can even be a revenue source.

    Don’t give the Volt a $7500 spiff, instead increase the gas tax 2 cents.

  • john personna Link

    BTW, it isn’t really a good attack on “increase gas tax, reduce payroll tax” to say “yeah, well maybe the wouldn’t reduce payroll enough!”

    You’ve just accepted that with the right change, they do balance.

  • PD Shaw Link

    The Mexican experience is informative, they were colonized by the Spanish. Spain required it’s colonies to produce goods that did not compete with the home country’s produce and would maximize revenue. That meant tobacco, and since Mexicans were consumers of the leaf, it also meant restrictions on it’s internal trade. Tobacco licenses were auctioned off to wealthy plantation owners, with the produce to be sold exclusively to the government. Mexicans still wanted tobacco, so they had to purchase their supplies either from the government at above market prices or through the black market. When Mexico gained it’s independence, it retained Spain’s economic policies since that was how the government supported itself. When General Grant wrote back from the Mexican-American War, he complained about the underutilization of labor and land in Mexico as a result of the tobacco policies.

    The English did not direct trade in the American colonies so closely (at least until 1765). They imposed taxes intended to regulate and encourage trade to the benefit of the home country or other British colonies, but it was only beginning in 1765 that the British began to tax internal activities that revolutionary sentiment began to rise.

    So, what kind of nation are we? I would say we are nation that at one time would have preferred the use of taxes or tariffs to encourage outcomes in the national interest while retaining economic flexibility. Today, we are probably more like Mexico, encouraging directed outcomes through government subsidies and de facto monopolies.

  • michael reynolds Link

    The old, antique, obsolete form of government we had until 70 or 80 years ago here in the United States wasn’t intended to make us the wealthiest or most powerful nation in the world. Its intent was to make us the freest one. Wealth and power have been the byproducts of that objective.

    I’ve been thinking about this post for a couple of days and finally settled on this graf as the most interesting. I could argue with the premise that the point of our government has ever been to make us free — a government that began, after all, by handing disproportionate political power to slaveholders.

    But the more interesting suggestion is that economic progress is one of things that tends to come as a consequence of pursuing larger goals. It’s like happiness in that way. You can’t wake up one morning, decide to pursue happiness and achieve it. But you can wake up one morning, devote your life to something you find meaningful and discover happiness along the way.

    Looking at it from a fiction writer’s perspective — sorry, my own professional bent — I’d say the US lost the plot thread. We had a story going that went something like this: a group of bold individuals set off to tame a new land and achieve freedom. Having gained a foothold they keep moving, overcoming every obstacle from mountain to desert, until their land spreads from sea to shining sea. From their they rapidly rise to great power and take on great responsibility. They save the free world and spread the doctrine of freedom far and wide.

    Setting aside the messy historical facts (slavery, genocide, religious intolerance,) that’s been roughly the plot so far. Even in that rather abbreviated form you can begin to see the story weaken. Our intrepid individualists end up as a superpower. Our bold, visionary thinkers end up as just one more apostle of freedom in a world that largely agrees with us.

    No more land to conquer. No more enemies of consequence. No more ideological mission.

    What’s the story now? It’s about getting rich and buying lots of stuff. Which isn’t much of a plot. We’re not collectively doing anything, we are collectively aimless. There is no longer an objective, and without some kind of goal — even a largely self-serving and partially fictitious one — how do we inspire action, sacrifice, daring?

    The story line has run out. Just as it has for most European nations.

  • Over the period of the last fifty or sixty years we’ve made enormous strides in extending the blessings of that liberty to all of our citizens. That simply wouldn’t have happened without the intervention of the federal government. In my view the political struggle in which we are now engaged is a struggle to determine whether more intervention from the federal government will bring us even greater prosperity with still more freedom or kill the goose that has laid the golden eggs and make us both poorer and less free than we have been. There’s a genuine difference of opinion on this question and the facts of the matter remain in dispute.–James M. Buchanan, Nobel Laureate and Professor

    In the end Friedman’s side/view will win, and we will have less freedom. Freedom scares people.

  • steve Link

    “In the end Friedman’s side/view will win, and we will have less freedom. Freedom scares people.”

    Nah. Some of us believe in positive liberty. Clean water, no plagues, fewer wars create enough positive liberty to outweigh the negatives.

    Steve

  • steve Link

    @Tango- That is why I excluded the extremes of government. True laissez faire leads to chaos, with the most ruthless winning. True central planning means loss of market efficiencies. Singapore, which does not allow free speech and has been ruled by the same party since the 60s, IIRC, and has about 80% of its people in public housing, does well. They built in a big social net, that they make people pay for, then tend to let business be business, just working to make sure people stay honest. Their harsh penalties enforce that. Of course, it also helps to have what amounts to slave labor available.

    Still, I have to think that their lack of corruption is a big positive. I suspect that is also a factor in the Scandinavian economies.

    Steve

  • john personna Link

    “Setting aside the messy historical facts (slavery, genocide, religious intolerance,) that’s been roughly the plot so far.”

    Heh, more likely the story we tell ourselves about American Exceptionalism, is in fact right up your alley. Fiction.

  • john personna Link

    (Someone suggested “The History Of The World in Six Glasses” to me. Reading from it today I see much in the nation’s founding related to rum, and then whiskey.)

  • steve:

    I think you’ve confused positive rights with positive liberties. What you’ve described are not positive liberties.

    Michael:

    There’s a lot to chew on and respond to in your post. I think that many of the changes in the country are about what would be expected when you import a population that doesn’t agree with the foundational principles over a period of, literally, centuries.

    That includes my own immigrant ancestors. It’s one of the reasons (besides my interest) that I think that my family’s history is of more general interest. None of my ancestors came over here in pursuit of freedom. Nearly all came because they had no other choice.

    Some were escaping their debts; some wanted land (the 19th century version of pursuing wealth); others almost undoubtedly got on the boat one step ahead of the sheriff.

    In your synopsis of American history I think you skipped at least one step. “Spreading the doctrine of freedom” was vehemently opposed by the Jeffersonians. Cf. John Quincy Adams’s Fourth of July speech (I’ve posted it here several times). I think they’d have seen spreading democracy by force as a betrayal of the principles they fought for.

    However, the missionary impulse isn’t a recent development in American politics. It goes right back to the founding and is part of the ongoing dialogue.

    Finally, I am deeply suspicious of attempts at finding a larger story, a greater meaning to the pattern of American history. I don’t think we need a national purpose. Indeed, I think we need less national purpose.

    Our national purpose is an emergent phenomenon forged of the millions of individual purposes in our society. Rather than attempting to unite us in a common purpose I’d rather see the purpose of government to facilitate our pursuing those individual purposes. Doing otherwise smacks of a Teddy Roosevelt-style “national greatness” agenda. That’s just the path away from the American republic to the American empire.

  • michael reynolds Link

    We have a population and a political class raised on the expectation of a story. People who expect a story feel lost without one, whether the narrative is national, racial, class, religious or whatever. The number of empiricists or phenomenologists in society is quite small.

    Of course in reality the over-arching narrative has been built out of smaller narratives — again, in terms of class, race, religion, individual life story — but by this point we’re heavily invested in that over-arching narrative. It’s a mythology, a sort of secular religion. Listen to the language of politicians and TV/Radio political creatures: it’s all a big story of (as John mentions above) American Exceptionalism, American uniqueness. The wonderfulness of us.

    People are expecting a story but the plotline has run out. We aren’t who we imagine we used to be. In addition to the frayed national narrative, look how the underlying narratives are coming apart: Racial superiority? Class identification? Religion and in particular religious difference? All the stories people told themselves to make themselves feel part of something grand and important, something worth fighting for, have disintegrated.

    Never underestimate the power of narrative in politics. Hitler was a great storyteller. Make an individual believe that he’s part of something larger than himself he may do wonderful or terrible things. Make a person lose his faith in that larger narrative he may feel bereft and rudderless. And the problem with people who feel rudderless is that sooner or later someone is going to tell them a really great story.

  • steve Link

    “I think you’ve confused positive rights with positive liberties. What you’ve described are not positive liberties.”

    I do take a fairly broad view. If you think of positive liberty as the right to maximize one’s abilities so that they may benefit from freedom, it works. I dont think that people generally talk about the right to be free from plagues. Are you really free to pursue life, maximizing happiness, if you are dying of plague or contaminated water? Not really sure how you entirely separate rights from liberty, and I am too lazy to go back and read Rousseau or Berlin.

    Steve

  • PD Shaw Link

    Dave, you’ll have to forgive me for saying that I think your ancestors are unexceptional as American immigrants. I would argue that immigrants that came here to avoid economic hardship and the structural limitations of their home country are by far the norm. I wonder if, as a more mature country, we are enacting similar structural barriers and where will the grandchildren leave for?

  • PD Shaw Link

    steve, no offense, but the sort of nation I want to live in will outlaw the notion of positive liberty. We don’t have a positive liberty of clean, drinking water in this country, yet somehow we survive. People who want to say they have a positive right to drinking water want something that does not bear-up to cost-benefit analysis, like people moving to the desert or swamps, to areas contaminated by decades of industrial/mining use, or to other environmentally sensitive places. They want the government to purify the water to a level of the most sensitive people or commit environmental damage in the process. They want to hand-wave the pros and cons as if it was a dictate from G*d. I would rather be governed by sweet reason that can persuade the majority.

  • PD Shaw Link

    BTW/ I intended to source my Americans as economic refugees point with a few examples:

    * The Scots-Irish

    * The Virginia Tide-Water Aristocracy (the second son problem) and their servants

    * John Billington, my ancestor, and the other strangers on the Mayflower (look it up on Wikipedia)

  • I suspect that relatively few Americans embarked for the New World as a consequence of losing a fortune playing jass as my great-great-grandfather Schuler did. My Irish ancestors are exceptional only in coming as early as they did (pre-Famine) and coming from Fermanagh and Westmeath.

    My German ancestors were, I understand, rather typical. They knew where they were going when they disembarked, they went with a group, and they purchased land when they arrived.

    My French ancestors aren’t particularly exceptional, either. They arrived long, long before there was a United States, wandering down from Quebec (probably looking for marks).

    My mom used to say that our family has probably been here longer than anybody who hasn’t a drop of English blood and isn’t black or American Indian.

  • I dont think that people generally talk about the right to be free from plagues.

    Okay, sounds great. Now how much will it cost to make sure the probability I get any disease starting right now is zero? Oh, and I don’t care about that cost because I’m on going to pay 1/300,000,000th of that cost. Guys, get out your check books!

  • True central planning means loss of market efficiencies and the most ruthless winning.

    There fixed it for you steve. If you look at examples of central planning they are ruthless regimes where tens of millions have died.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Damn Swiss-Irish brought their jass-playing ways to America, corrupted our youth with their pockmarked cheese and their fine tenor voices, and it’s been all downhill ever since.

  • john personna Link

    “positive rights with positive liberties” I don’t know, but I do know that there is a common tread to government responsibilities going back 10,000 years. Preventing starvation and (as they understood it) disease are some of those ancient responsibilities. And yeah, public works go back thousands of years. Roads and aqueducts were there right at the beginning.

  • PD Shaw Link

    Dave, don’t get me wrong; I find your family history very interesting (and had intended to emphasize that in my comment), but I think they are fully part of the American narrative.

    I think to the extent we have populations that don’t buy into that narrative, they are Mexican-American and that’s a product of proximity more than anything.

  • john personna Link

    “I think to the extent we have populations that don’t buy into that narrative, they are Mexican-American and that’s a product of proximity more than anything.”

    Did you catch “Restrepo” last night?

  • PD Shaw Link

    No, JP, but my mother-in-law’s family in Arizona includes a number of Mexican-Americans with lengthy military backgrounds. I’m not making an individual observation, I’m simply referring to something as old as the fall of Rome. It’s about the British inviting the Saxons to England to do some odd jobs. It’s about the Mexicans inviting Americans to Texas. The establishment of a large number a self-identifying people on the borders poses unique issues.

  • john personna Link

    The only productive narrative going forward is a multi-cultural one. The sooner we embrace it, and the more we can instill it with Enlightenment values, the better.

    The strange thing is that the old, white, demographic isn’t really facing the change with Enlightenment values. It’s more a “rural” defense.

  • We’ve been a multi-cultural country for the last 150 years, john personna. If you don’t believe it, compare popular literature written in 1820 with popular literature written in 1900 with popular literature written today. Even what it means to be white has changed over the years. 150 years ago Irishmen weren’t considered white by the white Anglo-Saxon Protestant dominant group. A century ago Jews and Italians weren’t considered white. Heck, my great-grandmother forbade one of my great-uncles from marrying the girl he loved because she wasn’t German. He married her after his mother died.

    I think the question is more whether we we’ll fragment into insular subcultures, either geographically or, possibly, virtually. Or abandon the variety of multi-culturalism that has developed here in favor of some minority’s culture.

  • john personna Link

    Why are you talking to me Dave, I did not claim cultural diversity was a problem?

    Beyond that, I think 150 years is quite a claim, in itself

  • john personna Link

    Sorry, the above was reading and writing on a phone, not the best.

    With a bigger aperture I get more of what you are saying. The common thread between us would be that our concept of American culture has been broadening. Where we might differ in degree would be where the transition went from “mixing pot” to “gumbo,” and if that new metaphor will really succeed.

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