I touch on this subject every once in a while. As a general rule in the English-speaking world, we tend not to call countries by the names their inhabitants do. If we did we’d call Italy “Italia”, Spain “España”, and Germany “Deutschland”. Sverige. Suomen. Zhong guo (with high level tone and rising tone on the first and second syllables, respectively).
Calling Lebanon “the Levant”, Ukraine “the Ukraine”, and Crimea “the Crimea” are old, established usages and there’s nothing wrong with any of them. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were literal translations from French. In French the article is mandatory, therefore l’Ukraine. Does anyone complain about that? Insisting that the definite article not be used when referring to Ukraine is either an affectation or a political statement and I’m wary about getting into other people’s political squabbles. “The Ukraine” is a usage that goes back at least three hundred years in English. Calling the country “Ukraine” isn’t calling it what its inhabitants do (that would be something like “Ukraina”). It’s a political statement.
I think the last time I got into this was over “Burma”. Myanmar is what the present government calls the country. As I understand it “Burma” (or, more accurately, the British pronunciation “Buhmuh”) is pretty close to what some of the inhabitants used to call it and is still well-established in English. Why abandon the established usage to take sides with the present governemnt?
Does anyone complain about that?
I’ve seen a few discussions over the topic. Mostly it’s a split between people that just want to be correct (and have others be correct), and people that want to show they’re better than everyone else, but it leans towards the former in my experience. I’ve tried to drop the article just out of the sake of politeness, as I do rub shoulders occasionally with Ukrainians online, and they seem to prefer dropping the article.
I was referring to the French usage in that sentence.
And of course your Ukrainian friends prefer it without the article. It’s a political statement. “When I am in Rome I fast; when I am in Milan I do not fast”.
Not friends, just people I ‘bump in to’ in my pursuit of chess. Mostly I try to avoid this issue with them, as I’m of the opinion we need to stay out of it, and they (naturally) want all the help they can get.
When I have gotten into ‘discussions’ about this (with Kasparov’s mouth piece Mig Greengard, for example), I get accused of being a pro-Putin stooge or worse. Doesn’t matter that I think Putin is a bad guy, and what’s going on in Ukraine is a dirty, rotten shame. I’m not in favor of risking thermonuclear war so that people like Kasparov can be successful politicians in their home country, so I’m pro-Kremlin, which is the same as being pro-Hitler to those folks.
Anyway, my chess-following persona tries to avoid that topic, and keeps it to arguing with other Americans about American policy options. It’s amazing how much wanting to mind one’s own business pisses some people off!
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Oh, and I misunderstood to which language you were referring. Still, I have seen the conversation.
I call the country “Ukraine” because that’s the name of an independent country.
If I was referring to a region, such as a region of Russia, I would use “the Ukraine” or the Don Basin, or the Volga Valley.
“The Levant” also refers to a non-state region, encompassing Lebanon, Israel, Palestinian territories, coastal Syria and the Hatay Province of Turkey.
I assume that people using “the Ukraine” doubt the existence of an independent country.
To put it another way, before 1991, there was the Ukrainian SSR. When it seceded from the Soviet Union and received international recognition as an independent country, it became “Ukraine.”
I guess it depends on what is meant by “independent”. I think that Ukraine as a country hostile to Russia is impractical. The Russians won’t accept it. The viable alternatives are a Ukraine that’s strictly neutral or one that’s a client state of Russia. If I understand the sentiments of the present government in Kiev, they’re hostile to Russia.
Crimea isn’t traditionally part of Ukraine. It was attached to it in 1954 IIRC.
Also must consider appeal to American interest. I am not interested in relearning a new name for Burma, particularly to suit internal regime change. The next regime might change the name again. Removing “the” actually requires less of me. BTW/ the appeal to American interest I refer to, is the disinterest of the American people.
I agree that the borders of the country do not correspond with what historically has been referred to as “the Ukraine.” When I hear “the Ukraine,” I don’t think of the Crimean Peninsula. I think that gives some support for using “the Ukraine” to refer to a geographical area (the breadbasket region), and “Ukraine” for the country.
When the Mexican Nationalist Front is able to pry Northern Mexico out of Yankee Control and return it to its proper sphere, are you still going to refer to anachronistic places like “Utah”? I don’t know, that’s kind of sad; like get over it all ready. The province of “Reconquista ” it is, just don’t expect me to change it to “Maximilian” after a while.
The province of “Reconquista †it is, just don’t expect me to change it to “Maximilian†after a while.
LOL
I started calling it “Ukraine” sometime in the early 1990’s. I don’t have any issues with it. When I lived in Ohio I also learned that “Versailles” and “Lima” Ohio are not pronounced like the originals.
One related pet peeve is how some people insist on pronouncing all Spanish words with some kind of Latino accent. I hear this a lot on NPR in particular but it seems pretty common. One NPR personality (I forget her name right now), even goes so far as saying the word twice – once in American English and once is latino-accented Spanish. The word-to-word change in accent and pronunciation is, at best, distracting and it’s never done with other Languages except occasionally by NPR’s Sylvia Poggioli with Italian names.
The behavior characteristic of Americans I’ve observed relating to languages other than English is to pronounce all non-English words as though they were French (in phonemes and word accent).