There’s quite a bit of waggery over President Biden’s “Disinformation Board”. When and if the board actually starts to act, I expect it will result in a considerable amount of litigation.
Rather than comment on the merits or lack thereof of the board, I propose that we create two lists:
- The topics that will be criticized by the disinformation board.
- The topics that will not be criticized by the disinformation board.
You can’t be serious.
Britain says Russian troll factory is spreading disinformation on social media
A good example. That the Ukrainians are persecuting Russian, Romanian, and Hungarian speakers is a statement of fact. The first act of the present Ukrainian government on coming into power in 2014 was to increase the power of the presidency but the second act was to ban the use of Russian, Romanian, and Hungarian in the schools. That happened. One might argue over its importance. in addition that there are Ukrainian ultra-nationalist paramilitaries operating in Eastern Ukraine is a fact. One might argue about its significance. The disinformation is that the persecution is the reason for the Russian invasion.
It is a fact that the coverage of the war we are receiving is slanted towards the Ukrainians. For example, we receive many, many reports of Russian soldiers killed but very few if any reports of Ukrainian soldiers killed. That is consistent with the practice of the Ukrainian government which doesn’t issue public reports of its military casualties.
So when we insist that people speak English, In Quebec they insist upon French and so on around the world that amounts to persecution? Not seeing it. Are there examples of what everyone would consider persecution? Spent some time googling it and couldn’t find any good examples. For sure groups are fighting and killing each other in Eastern Ukraine but not really clear to me who instigates stuff. So if you go back before Russia initiated the fighting in 2014 are there examples of persecution? Its hard to know what is propaganda but most of what I can find is that people got along OK. Speaking Russian didnt keep you from getting a job. They weren’t lynching Russian speakers. Russian speakers could marry Ukrainian speakers. They could eat in the same restaurants. Can you give specific examples of poor, discriminatory treatment? Heck, do the cops only shoot unarmed Russian speakers? Anyway, since you are sure it happens I am sure you have examples.
Agree that we dont really know how the war is going for sure. It does seem as thought based upon Russian media the Russians did expect a short easy war and the Ukrainians would support them. I think almost everyone is surprised Ukraine has fought together and appears to be fighting well.
Steve
On topic, this is tough. There are no accepted truths anymore. The vaccines are clearly safe and have saved thousands of lives but people continue to lie about them. How many unnecessary deaths, hospitalizations, costs do we accept? If we are going to allow people to publish lies, and I think to a large extent we have to put up with it, we should not make it consequence free. People have the right to lie. They also have the right to bear the consequences.
Steve
We don’t. Non-English speakers can become citizens and vote. I don’t know about other states but in Illinois there is no outright ban on instruction in the schools in languages other than English for non-English speakers although English is clearly preferred. The Anglophone Canadians have gone to heroic lengths to end the persecution of the Francophone Canadians but they did, indeed, used to be persecuted in Anglophone Canada.
The persecution of Russian, Romanian, and Hungarian speakers in Ukraine began in 2014 after the putsch that overthrew the legitimately elected pro-Russian government and before the Russian invasion of Crimea.
A better step than the one that has been taken would be for our government and government representatives to stop lying to our citizens, either by commission or omission. But that would mean the end of politics as we know it so it won’t happen.
To use your example, are the vaccines safe? What are their long-term consequences? I don’t know and I don’t believe that anyone else knows, either. We have lots of experience with vaccines but not with these vaccines. I have received two inoculations and a booster. That was my choice. I assessed the risks and benefits and decided that the risks were worth taking. But that doesn’t mean there are no risks.
For me there isn’t much of a long run to worry about but that’s not true for a 20 year old kid. Can we say with real confidence what the risks are for a 20 year old kid who receives an mRNA inoculation against COVID-19 every six months over a period of ten, twenty years?
What you don’t look for won’t be seen. What is covered up and hidden by falsehoods will be spread around as facts or truth. That is the environment being cultivated today, only to be intensified under a government program proclaiming what is true or not – Biden’s Disinformation Board. Such a title even sounds creepy. To say we haven’t embarked on an Orwellian journey, though, is to have one’s eyes, ears and especially their minds closed.
As for those “safe†vaccines, once the Pfizer clinical trials data, undisclosed data from the military, and more VAERS reports are exposed the safety of these injections will be a hollow claim, much like the earlier claim of their enduring efficacy, protecting people from getting or transmitting the virus. Thalidomide and Vioxx were also marketed as safe, effective drugs until the side effects became so profound (over time) they were finally taken off the market – much too late, however, for those who were harmed by them.
Jan: these injections will be a hollow claim
A quarter millions lives were saved through vaccination, just in the U.S., Hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations were prevented. All medications, including vaccines, have side-effects, but there is no evidence of any side-effects from the vaccine that comes close to negating the benefit.
I think it will be simpler to tell disinformation. If it reflects badly on the Administration (including reporting unscripted remarks) then its disinformation. If it reflects well on the administration, of course, its pure quill TRUTH.
I might add that people like Steve appear to give little thought or credence to how Pfizer ran their clinical trials, or the significance of evidence bring culled due to more time for discovery of the good, bad, and ugly of this jab.
Whistleblowers, for instance, have came forward recounting how they saw data being manipulated in order that Pfizer would reach a better outcome for FDA approval. These employees were promptly fired. Pregnant women, and those earlier infected by COVID, were rejected as test participants for these trials. However, after it’s approval Pfizer said these two untested categories were “safe†to take the jab – even mandated to do so. There is also no long term data available as to how these mandated jabs will effect a woman’s fertility or birth defects in newborns, as the trial time was so short. Military data, though, is beginning to indicate a higher than normal number of stillbirths in vaccinated military females. It is now known, too, that the spike protein in this faux â€vaccine†is attracted to ace receptors in the ovaries, and women’s menses seem to be heavier and longer post vaccination. Finally, it was posited that once the jab was given in an arm, it stayed there and was fairly quickly absorbed. With more time given to study it’s longevity and course of action in the body, autopsies reveal 6 months out there are still spike proteins in the tissues, and they have circulated everywhere – far from the original injection site of the arm.
A number of states had English only laws for school. I think Arizona may still retain theirs. I asked for more specific examples of persecution and you offer none. You said we let non English speakers vote. Are you indirectly claiming Russian speakers dont get to vote in Ukraine? You keep saying there was obvious persecution. What were they doing?
“To use your example, are the vaccines safe? What are their long-term consequences? I don’t know and I don’t believe that anyone else knows, either. ”
What vaccines have ever had delayed effects this far out? Ever? How about in the last 60 years? Can you provide a physiological explanation why we might see one this late? Having some science background i have to concede the risk is not zero. (This is the disadvantage I face when I have to argue with unprincipled and uneducated ideologues or liars who have no such constraints or people who take seeing both sides to an extreme.) For the first time ever, even though there is no reason based upon the vaccine or human physiology to expect it, we might see some problem over a year out. However, we have evidence that in the meantime millions of lives have been saved and maybe more importantly millions fewer hospitalizations and fewer long term effects from the illness. You dont get to have zero risk very often, if ever, and our history consistently shows that striving for zero risk is often pretty harmful.
Steve
†A quarter millions lives were saved through vaccination, just in the U.S., Hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations were preventedâ€
Going back to the widely established lethality rate of a virus being less than 1% for most age groups who are healthy, it was more the early-on standard of care given to those with the virus than the virus itself that caused so much grief and death. Those physicians who applied early treatment to the inflammatory stage of the virus, with already approved repurposed drugs and appropriate doses of steroids, had few hospitalizations and even fewer deaths under these protocols. However, without inflammation being immediately addressed, the virus went into overdrive, going into the lungs creating respiratory havoc, leading to the misuse/abuse of ventilators, and eventually cytokine storms and damaging blood clotting.
A large contingency of physicians, who stand by early treatment methods, see the outcome very differently than what government/medical acolytes have hypothesized. Rather, their own experiences and that of many other medical personnel, assert “hundreds of thousands†of lives could have been saved had doctors been allowed to service their patients, as they saw fit, with life-saving protocols that the government chose to restrict and/or censor. All you have to do is look at the success rate of doctors, who rebuffed “Fauci’s felonious follies,†in lieu of following the real data and facts, saving lives rather than hospitalizing or killing them off.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/20/ukraine-nationalist-attacks-russia-supporters-kremlin-deaths
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine#
https://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ab0b38.html
They are not hard to find and they are not “disinformation”. The point is that there is a kernel of truth in the Kremlin’s claims which are exaggerated to justify the immoral invasion of Ukraine. It is not a case of 100% right vs. 100% wrong as is being portrayed.
Additionally, there is a very lengthy history in Russia and Ukraine of language as an indicator of support for the state. That doesn’t justify Russia’s invasion but it does provide some context.
“Whistleblowers, for instance, have came forward recounting how they saw data being manipulated in order that Pfizer would reach a better outcome for FDA approval.”
I have mentioned several times my association with a Johns Hopkins, a tip of the spear organization, physician who would curdle your blood if you heard her talk. Science my ass. Politics from start to finish. And absolutely no one should be surprised.
Jan: Whistleblowers, for instance, have came forward recounting how they saw data being manipulated in order that Pfizer would reach a better outcome for FDA approval.
The allegations concern only a small fraction of the test subjects and locations, and largely relate to poor practices, not bad data. There is no indication of any significant discrepancy.
Jan: Pregnant women, and those earlier infected by COVID, were rejected as test participants for these trials. However, after it’s approval Pfizer said these two untested categories were “safe†to take the jab – even mandated to do so.
Studies have shown that the vaccine is much safer than infection for pregnant women, even though they have a higher probability of adverse effects. Pregnant women can generally get a medical exemption from mandates.
Jan: It is now known, too, that the spike protein in this faux â€vaccine†is attracted to ace receptors in the ovaries
You do realize that the spike protein is part of the virus that causes COVID? The difference is that with a live infection, the virus is replicating rapidly inside the body’s cells destroying them, as well as releasing vast numbers of spike proteins.
Jan: it was more the early-on standard of care given to those with the virus than the virus itself that caused so much grief and death.
While the scientific development of treatment has improved, as many as 2,000 a day were still dying {in the U.S.} in February, 2022. None of the quack cures have been borne out.
I rest my case.
How come Orwell had much better names than in real life. As an example.
Ministry of Truth vs Department of Homeland Security Disinformation Governance Board
Ministry of Plenty vs Federal Reserve
Ministry of Peace vs Department of Defense [previous name was Department of War; how many wars since it got its present name in 1949 were fought in actual defense of sovereign US territory — 1?)
Unperson vs “deplatformed”
Emmanuel Goldstein vs Donald Trump
Speakwrite vs Siri / Alexa
Oceania vs North Atlantic Treaty Organization and Major non-NATO ally (they cover pretty much similar geography)
Telescreen vs Zoom
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength vs colorblind racism (there could be a valid idea in there; but the name to the concept is an oxymoron).
“I have mentioned several times my association with a Johns Hopkins, a tip of the spear organization, physician who would curdle your blood if you heard her talk.”
Hopkins is decent but really just another hospital network. This is what I do for a living and have contacts within organizations rated much better than Hopkins. So I can realistically claim a lot more secret friends with special knowledge. The difference being that my secret friends have also published and they also read the literature. Your friend is a liar, exaggerating or she is a drama queen. There is a reason she is telling you, a non medical person stuff but not other medical people or publishing what she knows.
Dave- I have asked several times for examples of persecution, your term, beyond the language issue. You offer none so I suspect my suspicions are correct, they dont exist. Here in the US we understand persecution and discrimination. You cant work or your work choices are limited. You cant live in certain places, eat or drink in some places. You cant marry the wrong person. You get lynched if you break the rules. You are more likely to be abused by the police. Note that there are no restrictions on using Russian in private life.
Your article notes that they started restricting Russian language after Crimea and Russia instigated fighting in East Ukraine. So while asking that in the country of Ukraine people use the Ukraine language in school and in government functions doesnt really seem like persecution to me I will concede this means that Russia is not 100% wrong. Probably more like 99.9%.
jan- For those of us who practiced through the covid pandemic you just sound stupid. Not a clue about what really happened.
Steve
One should learn the history of Canada before using it as an example. Its a sobering lesson.
Language is as explosive an issue in Cananda as race is the US. In living memory, because of language divides, Canada had a terrorist movement, and two referendums on dissolving the country, and came within 50,000 votes of dissolving.
And Canada never had official laws to discriminate against French Canadians or the French language — it had a liberal constitution as a British dominion. French Canadians lacked opportunity because English was the language of business, law, government; and they were locked out because they didn’t speak it. But that was enough to nearly blow up the country.
What Canada is today is a conscious effort over 50 years to make French a truly equal language in the country; that governments (even English speaking provinces) provide services bilingually, that bilingualism is entrenched in the heights of commerce (bank etc), even making bilingualism a requirement to government jobs like judges, civil servants.
And French Canadians paranoia about French is why Quebec has French only laws. Those laws at one point abrogated Canada’s Charter of Rights of Freedom (equivalent to the US Bill of Rights) and are quite unpopular in English Canada, but it is understood to be the price to keep the country united.
If current-day Canada is considered a success to follow; Ukraine ought to do exactly what Dave proposes for its Russophone minority.
I think my view of Canada is just a bit different. Language was just part of the difference. There were also significant cultural differences that those in Quebec wanted to maintain so it went beyond language. Also in Canada the laws were not instituted as the result of the French Quebec people invading and attacking the English speakers. So my comment was that they insist on French in Quebec but I dont think the English speakers regard that as persecution.
Note that this looks mostly like tit for tat revenge. Russia invades Crimea. Ukraine promotes Ukraine solidarity. No evidence, at least none I can find or you can provide that it has resulted in people not getting jobs, getting lynched, etc. Maybe the compromise solution is that Russia leaves Ukraine, provides solid believable assurance they wont attack again, and Ukraine allows areas to be bilingual or at least not require the Ukraine language.
Steve
Err….. that’s a real misunderstanding of Canada and Canadian history. Have you read a book on Canadian history by a Canadian?
English speakers in Quebec do regard the laws as a prosecution. Something like 250,000 emigrated from Quebec in response. The rest of Canada accepted the laws as the price for unity.
If one wants to start understanding Canada to make an intelligent point; start with the book the Hockey Sweater.
As should be obvious there is no such assurance short of total unilateral disarmament and as should also be obvious that’s a non-starter.
I think that’s a fair point CO. I may be too influenced by the Canadians we know thinking they might have a better view of things.
Dave- Yes. Anything other than giving territory to Russia is unlikely to be accepted by Russia. Hence, the talk about moderation and diplomacy is mostly BS right now.
Steve
Knowing Canadians is better then nothing. But let’s put it in perspective, there are 1 million Canadians living in the US; and something like 500K Canadians that live in the US seasonally (esp in the winter). A rough guestimate giving each person knows 10-50 people well; 10%-50% of Americans know a Canadian. Indeed, I know Canadians as well.
Maybe this is an interesting meta-question. By what measures should one be considered an expert in a foreign country and its culture?
Knowing people that live there?
Studied books about it?
Speaking the language?
Living there (how long)?
Growing up there?
Wife does not like flying very much so we travel quite a bit in Canada and go there for theater every year so we know Canadians here in the US and also in Canada. To be an expert I think you have to actively study, reading, and I think you need to spend time in the country.
Steve
Ideally, all of the above. My ranking of the importance of those factors (in descending order of importance):
Speaking the language?
Studied books about it?
Living there?
Growing up there?
Knowing people that live there?
with some caveats. Not all books are created equal. Studying another culture intensively helps enormously in understanding it but so does living there. Neither is definitive.
Sadly, expertise has been greatly debased. Nobody believes in authority. I suspect that most feel that being able to use Google is enough to provide genuine expertise. One factor that has facilitated that is even experts can be wrong.