In general I agree with the suggestions for gun control made by Nicholas Kristof in his most recent New York Times column. They include
- Raising the minimum age for gun ownership to 21 nationwide
- Bar purchases by those with recent convictions for drug or alcohol abuse, violence, or stalking
- Bar purchases by those under a domestic violence protection order
- Universal background checks
but then he goes off the deep end by comparing the U. S. with highly homogeneous countries with high levels of social cohesion, e.g. New Zealand and Japan.
Why are those appropriate comparisons? Only because they have the very lowest levels of gun violence. He might consider that the high homogeneity and social cohesion result in low levels of gun violence not to mention a greater willingness to limit gun ownership.
Why not compare the U. S. with Mexico or Brazil? Why not with South Africa or Nigeria? The United States has 4.96 homicides per 100,000 population. Mexico’s is 29.07; Brazil’s 27.38; Nigeria’s 34.52; South Africa’s 36.40.
The homicide rate for non-Hispanic whites in the U. S. is 2.6; Hispanics 4.9; non-Hispanic blacks 20.9. However, as I have previously pointed out the homicide rate among rural blacks in the U. S. is significantly lower than that among urban blacks. That’s almost the opposite of the gun ownership patterns or, said another way, there is a stronger correlation between race/ethnicity and homicide than between gun ownership and homicide.
So by all means let’s reform our laws on gun ownership but let’s not stop there, deluded into believing that gun ownership tells the whole story. There are cultural, social, and mental health factors as well and those are at least as urgent if not more so.
I thought Exum’s article was as good or better. To Kristof’s list I would add drunk driving. If you arent responsible with a 3000 pound vehicle I dont especially want you carrying guns.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/america-gun-ownership-laws-culture-mass-shootings/638430/
I really dont understand modern gun culture. We kept guns on the farm. You used them to shoot critters. Once a year or every other year you shot raccoons so they wouldn’t go after the corn. You didnt dress up in camo and pose for pictures with your collection of 20 guns.
i do like the idea of teaching kids about guns since there is no way they are going away. 20 years ago I would have felt strongly that the NRA was the right group to do this. They used to do a great job of teaching gun safety. Now they grown internally corrupt with scandal after scandal and their primary goal is promoting gun sales for the gun industry. We have a rifle team at our high school. Let it be taught in school. None of the stupid stuff about what ammo is best for home defense or penetrating body armor. Just simple stuff like if you are little leave the guns alone. For older kids teach them how to unload, just like Exum suggests. Teach them as a tool, not a fetish item.
Steve
I don’t understand it, either.
I learned to shoot when I was in high school. My high school had and continues to have a highly-ranked rifle team. One of the ways they recruited members was by teaching everybody to shoot and responsible gun handling.
I have little interest in firearms of any variety. In terms of self defense I’m pretty confident without them but I’m an oddball. I do think there are deep-seated cultural issues involved. The irony of an entertainment industry committed to glorifying guns with actual people in the industry campaigning against them seems to be lost on us.
As I think I’ve mentioned before I have two long guns, neither of which has been discharged in living memory. One of them is a shotgun given to my dad when he was 12; the other is a rifle carried by my great-great-grandfather in the Civil War (we don’t throw things away in this family). Those are paper weights not weapons. I doubt you could find ammunition for either of them.
As soon as any gun tragedy reaches a gaggle of politicians it’s politicized and gamed, rather than energizing solutions that pinpoint real weaknesses associated with episodes of school violence. The Dems instant reaction are emotional howls for more “gun control,†with gun confiscation usually behind the curtain of their intentions. Republicans are usually more slack-jawed, repeatedly calling for prayers as a poultice to soothe pain, and little else. Consequently, school gun violence seems to be met with nothing more than a rinse and repeat process.
One parent, experiencing a personal loss of a child, recommended a “3 point program†deterrence: 1) have a single point entrance during school hours; 2) hire an armed guard near that point: 3) educate teachers how to appropriately respond to such an event. I think mental health is also a huge component behind deviant violent behavior, making it reasonable to subject anyone under 21 to mental health evaluations before a gun purchase can be made. Finally, there should be a serious examination of cultural influences that may be negatively influencing the mental health of our youth ——> the pathology behind teen’s heavy usage of marijuana: social isolation; violence embedded in gaming; early dosing of kids with drugs to counter ADHD behavior and their side effects. The reason for these suggestions is how closely the perpetrators of these school shootings resemble each other in being self isolating loners, few to no friends, heavy weed smoker and usually on some types of behavior- altering meds, males addicted to gaming etc.
At OTB Matt Bernius has a typically good post on why “school resource officers” (SROs) like those in the three point plan you outline won’t be effective:
Observations:
I think all 4 dot points are reasonable. However, I’m sure you know the problem: the zealots will take those, put them in their pocket, and move right towards the next set of restrictions. The gun grabbers are part of the problem because of their stridency.
I think steve makes a good observation in adding DUI types. But I also note, we go berserk over certain shooting events, hardly cover inner city shootings, but fail to enforce repeat DUI laws. We are not serious people.
Funneling school visitors to a single point of entry is a particularly good strategy. It is control. One must make provisions for emergency exit, though. Say, in case of fire. Bernius’ points are ludicrous. Most SRO’s are just this side of Aunt Bea. If we are serious we need a real live deterrent and entry protocol at that station. That doesn’t exist and so all of his subsequent observations and citations fall apart under a faulty initial assumption.
As far as “gun culture” is concerned, its fine to muse about but not to be dictated. What next, critiquing the garb of bass fishermen? As a kid I plinked bottles, shot rats at the dump, and hunted birds. We also shot skeet and pistol targets. I didn’t touch a gun for decades after high school. But I now own two guns and target shoot them. Even though I had familiarity with guns, I took the concealed carry class at Palmetto Armory just as a refresher. Wore a golf shirt, not cammo.
There are people in FL, GA, SC, NC, AL, AK who hunt bear, boar, turkeys and so forth as a hobby just as I play golf. I’m sure they think golf is odd. Different strokes. These are serious people and very safety conscious.
As a final thought, and surely Dave, you didn’t have to look up statistics to know that that shootings and murders in urban areas dwarf those in rural or suburban areas. That tells you the real problem for most shootings: drug wars.
School shootings are an entirely different animal. It is a mental health issue.
overwelmingly
Drew’s point about Aunt Bea is spot on. You just dont get the cream of the crop to be your school armed guard. This describes a lot of private security guards too. Also, just one is easy even if it is Rambo. The guard is going to have the gun in its holster. The shooter knows they are going to shoot so will always have the first shot advantage. So how will you afford two, top flight armed guards? Not happening at most schools. The one entryway wont work. You need extra security exits. If you can get out you can get in. If you have just one emergency exit you are funneling kids exiting in one long line for the shooter. What more could they want?
Anyone here actually do much with their kids at school? We have been heavily involved in speech and debate with our local high school even after our son left. We got drawn in a bit to help with some of the sports stuff. My initial impression is that given the high volume of traffic during off hours with all of the extracurriculars going on having one entrance would probably end a lot of those activities. Bus loads of kids entering and leaving, parents setting up dinners, night time classes for adults at same time. At the very least would need to also pay guards after hours.
Steve
Evidently, no one here has purchased a gun since the 1960’s. Kristof, himself, is totally ignorant of how guns are bought and sold and regulated.
I have purchased a gun a few times during the last few decades. I even own one of the “horrifying,” “scary,” “useless,” “unnecessary” AR-15’s, a very nice Springfield Arms Saint, made right there in Illinois. AR-15’s are the gun of choice for most people, because they are ergonomic, easy to shoot and aim, accurate, and easy to take down and maintain.
Point One is almost certainly constitutionally invalid. The US Ninth Circuit Court just ruled California’s law denying semiautomatic gun sales to people under 21 is unconstitutional:
https://lawandcrime.com/second-amendment/ninth-circuit-strikes-down-california-gun-law-cites-nations-long-history-of-giving-young-people-firearms/
If the Ninth won’t allow such a law, no court will. (How did Kristof miss this ruling?)
Points Two and Three above are already in force, and have been for a few decades. To buy a gun you must sign an affidavit, under penalty of perjury, that none of those apply to you, and it is part of the background check.
As to the last point, universal background checks been required for every sale for a very long time, with one exception. An individual may give or sell a gun to another. However, nearly all guns are bought through dealers, and they are required to do a background check. Actually, either the FBI or ATF (I forget which.) does a computerized background check for the dealer. The dealer requires the buyer to present a current valid photo ID with name and current address on it. In addition, you have to enter your birthdate, city of birth, social security number, height, weight, sex, and ethnicity. The process takes about an hour, and nowadays is completely computerized. I can remember when the paper work at the store was just that–paper work–but the computer check was always done.
Criminals don’t bother with any of this, and there is a significant black market in guns in every city, especially the big Democrat-run cities. It’s hard to believe that Lightfoot and Foxx don’t get kickbacks from the blackmarketeers. Also, a certain amount of pilferage goes on, especially at government armories, both military and police. Some pilferage occurs from factories and in transit. And some guns are stolen from individuals who own them legally. Your laws do nothing about any of that.
But all this misses the point. All, as in ALL, of the schools shooters to date have been demonstrably insane, and their friends, neighbors, schoolmates and teachers knew it. They all made threats. In the infamous Connecticut killings, the boy’s mother had made repeated requests to local authorities to lock him up, but they refused because he was over 18.
We need reforms in how we treat the mentally ill. A generation ago we shut down all the psychiatric hospitals, and dumped the sick onto the streets, where they remain today. Nearly every homeless person is also insane, and is homeless and jobless because of his sanity. Most homeless refuse to use shelters, because the shelters are not well regulated and are dangerous, and even crazy people know it. Almost all are men, too, and of every race.
We also need reforms in how we police young black males in the underclass. That group commits 55% of all gun violence and murders and 75% of all mass shootings.
Proposals to limit guns, which are already regulated, are a diversion from the real problems. People who focus on gun restrictions are diverting attention from the real problems, and many of them are doing so dishonestly.
A boy was stabbed to death at one of the city high schools back in the Fall, and I think they’ve installed metal detectors at the entrances at all high schools. My son graduated early in December so hasn’t experienced it, but students have to arrive twenty minutes earlier and have to wait outside in all weather.
The stabbing freaked out a lot of people, but my son refused to sign a student petition in favor of metal detectors because he thought the stabbing would have occurred somewhere else anyway and metal detectors would just make the school worse. It was a feud situation, the mother encouraged her 16 year old daughter to do something to help her younger brother from being bullied by someone in another group. She confronted an older brother of “the bully” at his locker after school wielding a knife and chased him out of the building. Another student intervened and was stabbed to death. Initially, I thought he was a good Samaritan and maybe he still was, but he was part of the other group. The daughter is being charged as an adult, and will probably never be meaningfully free again. Students will lose twenty minutes of sleep in lines.
@steve, my kids’ schools only had one entrance used during school hours, with the exception that the high school once had two entrances opened in the morning to let kids in. After school has been less active than when I was a kid, but depends on the activity. For plays, band concerts and similar activities in the auditorium, the teacher unlocks the closest door, which is mostly unsupervised except for whomever is handing out programs. For basketball games, there is security at a single entrance and everybody gets wanded with baskets to put any metals.
Added: Not that the security is so tight that one of the many locked doors couldn’t be opened from the inside to let someone in. But there are cameras around the schools as well.
Wow! Much tighter than ours. During school hours they mostly come in through one door but deliveries use alternate doors. After hours and weekends there are 4 or 5 entrances open.
Steve
That’s an issue I have raised repeatedly. I also wonder if tighter gun controls doesn’t just produce greater incentives for these black markets. How would we go about proving that empirically?
Said another way I think it’s pretty ironic that some of the same people who insist that the prohibition of drugs or alcohol doesn’t work are insisting that prohibitions on guns do work.
Laurie Dann had a profound impact on Illinois schools.
“How would we go about proving that empirically?”
Look at the history of the cocaine trade and the Columbian production and Mexican distribution business. Guns would be no different. Cocaine was and is plenty illegal. But the Columbian and Mexican cartels got plenty rich – to this day. Its a demand issue, which in turn is a cultural, societal, mental health whatever you want to call it issue.
I think it is more complicated than pure demand. In medicine we have the concept of provider induced demand. The pro gun lobby, especially the NRA, exists to promote gun sales. A big part of that is to increase fear. Fear that people will be attacked, fear that the guns will be taken away (which doesnt happen) or just general fear. That puts lots more guns in circulation and inevitably some of those end up where they dont belong.
Steve
†The pro gun lobby, especially the NRA, exists to promote gun sales. A big part of that is to increase fear. Fear that people will be attacked, fear that the guns will be taken away (which doesnt happen) or just general fear. That puts lots more guns in circulation and inevitably some of those end up where they dont belong.â€
The NRA is a gun owner advocacy group whose main focus is on gun safety and competency, since it’s founding in 1871. It’s an institution having been around for over 150 years, and it’s members are rarely, if ever, involved in mayhem or violence. However, their membership is nevertheless dragged out on the heels of almost every tragedy, like the recent school massacre, becoming an intrinsic menacing factor underlining these tragic events. Promoting fear, careless, or cavalier usage of guns, is so opposite what the NRA stresses, such as the higher ideals of gun ownership. Also, more guns are purchased when administrations come into power threatening gun control, like Obama and now Biden. Furthermore, more gun violence occurs in “gun free zones,†where criminals feel safe in having the upper hand, than where there are possibilities of a someone around knowing how to defensively use a gun. Lastly, guns that are stolen usually end up in wrong hands. Most NRA members have gun safes and/or store their firearms responsibility.
I’ve purchased 3 guns since the 1960’s. In fact, all in the last three years. All in FL. Walther PPQ, and its little brother. And a Browning over/under shotgun for skeet.
They did a simple background check. About a week from application to approval. Have no idea what they looked at. Don’t care. I hope it was thorough.
Sykes went on a bit of a rant. The best home defense weapon is a short barreled shotgun, unless you are trained military or a cop, or do competition shooting. An AK is a mass casualty weapon.
Next is a high quality full sized 9mm. I happen to have a Walther PPQ. But Glock and Sig Sauer make fantastic guns. I like the Walther trigger. For concealed, get smaller versions of Glock, Sig or Walther.
I noted Daves comment that he feels fine out and about. Indeed, for every year I was in Chicago I would say the same. But my wife had a friend recently in an attempted carjack. Near North. (This just shouldn’t be happening here.) A guy with a gun. Mid day, not 2AM.
I would want to be armed.
My father was a lifetime member of the NRA and I have been a member off and on. It is no longer primarily a safety promoting organization. It really has been riddled with corruption issues. It now exists to promote gun sales though there are still some good people in the organization. I send people to our pistol range to take the NRA handgun safety course if they are new to guns since the instructors up there are pretty solid even if the politics has crept in.
Best home defense gun? There are hundreds of articles and YouTube on this. My take is the best gun is the one you are comfortable shooting and can actually hit stuff with. For concealed get the gun you will actually carry every day. Way too any people go for the big gun with the big clip and it gets annoying and stop carrying after a few months.
Steve