Andrew Sullivan does a very tidy job of summarizing my view of the killing of Michael Brown and the riots that followed the grand jury’s decision not to indict the police officer who killed him:
I agree with those who argue that the police’s interaction with young black men is, in too many cases, riddled with bias and far too quick to use lethal force. But I agree with others that the Michael Brown case is not the case with which to make that argument.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Picking the wrong symbol may saddle you with some unwanted baggage, in this case the riots.
The fact of the riots is really the most interesting part of the case. By most accounts, Ferguson was a fairly decent place to live before this happened. Not great, but certainly not bad. (Sounded better than Pine Hills, where I currently live, though I haven’t looked to match up stats.)
So why these riots? Why riot and drag the community down when things weren’t that bad? I’m really wondering how things deteriorated so quickly.
I can only offer suppositions on that. I think it’s a result of outside agitators and nogoodniks drawn in by irresponsible journalism and leaders.
It is kind of odd that they chose this particular symbol. They have had at least 3 or 4 since then that would be much better. In fact, there is no shortage of them. Which kind of proves the point that something needs to change.
However, where you are wrong is that not much was going to stop the initial riots. You, and Sullivan, are forgetting the way the police handled the shooting. Leaving the body in the street for hours. Not communicating with family or community leaders. That alone, plus a dead unarmed teen means you likely get some protests at least.
Steve
That explains later riots, but the first couple of days at the start would have been locals.
Three or four over several months in a country of 310 million doesn’t strike me as an epidemic.
As for leaving the body in the street, I have seen reports that that was/is fairly standard procedure.
And can you tell me which “community leaders” they should have contacted? Ferguson isn’t that bug a place, police shootings apparently are very uncommon there, so I doubt that the leaders didn’t hear about it almost immediately.
And even if that leads to protests, protests are not riots.
I keep wondering about a few stray details. “Snitches get stitches” started appearing all over that town on day one. Grand jury testimony indicated witnesses were fearful of testifying counter to the “Hands up, don’t shoot” lie. Rumors abound concerning the gang related activities of Brown’s father & step-father. (Most of that stays rumor because the major news outlets seem to be largely silent on the matter, which is tellingly suspicious in its own right.)
Another curious detail: Brown’s juvie record has not been released. Official statements indicate no convictions for serious crimes, but that is not the same as saying he was clean. It indicates SOMETHING is on his record. Did he get popped for drinking a beer? Or was he always in trouble?
The initial story given by Brown’s friend was that Brown was shot in the back while fleeing, and after Brown was hit, he stopped, raised his hands and turned asking the officer to stop shooting, and the officer shot him dead in broad daylight in front of witnesses. If true, it would have been an extreme act of malice not just to Brown, but to those watching — the police officer felt they had no power to hold him accountable. It was so depraved that I doubted this story was completely true in this form, though how would one know until the investigation was completed that Brown’s friend wasn’t accurate? I ignore the Cosby stories for similar reason, how would I know what happened?
I’m not sure those making a symbol of Brown care about the reality of the matter. Hey, that’s part of the reason you use symbols in the first place.
Ice is right about leaving a body where it is, being a common practice, especially exemplified by cases like this one where disputed accounts are certain to come into play. Every blood spot and small measurement had to be done before his body was taken away, otherwise people would have been quick to say the evidence was shoddily collected, or was even tainted because of the haste in obtaining it. I personally think, though, that no matter how the Brown/Wilson incident was handled, there would have been someone asserting it was mishandled.
Brown’s juvie record has not been released.
This was similar to the Trayvon Martin shooting too, where his records were not publicly disclosed. Internet digging did find gangster-like postings, photos and eventually problems at school and with his family that painted a completely different picture of this young man than was initially fanned in front of the public. The description of Brown being a “gentle giant,” was also pushed in this current Ferguson controversy, despite the clear images of him minutes before pushing around a store clerk half his size. However, once misinformation is out there, it’s the old adage of trying to unring a bell. Or, as one line was once delivered in an old Seinfeld episode, “It isn’t a lie if you believe it.”
Well, once the lies were seated in both of these instances, people have continued to believe what they wanted to believe — evidence be damned!
Yes, there are much better examples than this – however, the amateurishness of the Ferguson PD made matters much worse.
Just a taste:
https://storify.com/AthertonKD/veterans-on-ferguson
Two observations:
1) An actor’s prior criminal record is a highly disputed issue in court proceedings, for the reason that a jury might tend to judge the case based upon the prior conviction and not the evidence of the crime before it. If the prosecutor didn’t introduce that evidence to the grand jury, it speaks well of him.
2) However, this grand jury, like any grand jury, probably heard more evidence than would be heard at the trial. Trials are orchestrated by rules of evidence — rules of exclusion. One of which is that the judge may reduce the number of witnesses offering cumulative testimony. The other aspect is that lawyers often concede issues to avoid more inflammatory testimony on that issue. No question that if the grand jury returned an indictment that the jury at trial would have heard _ less_ evidence.
It doesn’t really matter what crimes Michael Brown had committed in the past though, does it? Wilson’s story makes him sound like someone who was suicidal and deeply disturbed, and not a hardened criminal. Unless he had bodies buried somewhere and blood on his hands, there was no reason for any to feel that the only way out was to kill a cop. Terrifying black thugs can handle being busted for stealing cigars; they aren’t going to go for a cop’s gun and death or a huge sentence just because they’re black and scary.
Of course, I don’t believe a word of Wilson’s story. Michael Brown, barring any evidence that I’ve read, was not suicidal. His main problem was that he grew up in a tough neighborhood, which he may or may not have managed to escape. Darren Wilson, however, sounds like he completely dehumanized his environment and was too dumb to notice it. God knows what other horrifying traits we will discover. The allowance of people like Wilson to have guns and power is the outside agitator that caused the rioting.
And as for as why Michael Brown? The honest answer is because racism is too smart to show up to defend a fuckwad who calls the police with a false claim about a black man waving a gun around in Wal-mart, or the shit police who shot this shopper in the back and then discovered it was a BB gun. The best people can get with racism is an armed white man and a scary unarmed black kid.
“Of course, I don’t believe a word of Wilson’s story. “
Modula,
Why?
Were you there?
Seven, yes 7 black witnesses collaborated Wilson’s story. Furthermore, their testimony collaborated the physical evidence produced by the three (3) forensic autopsies — something the swarth of disjointed accounts, siding with Brown, were not able to do. The biggest liar of them all was Brown’s friend, who helped him rob the store, igniting the aftermath with falsehoods like the “hands up, don’t shoot” scenario, which turned into a distorted symbolism placing this country on a wrong and divisive course. In the meantime, many others, who also saw this confrontation are too terrified to testify least they be victimized by the same people who have victimized Ferguson.
Is this the kind of justice you define as “justice?” If it is then your justice is the kind that butalizes truth in favor of forcing an outcome to the way you want it to be — it’s called tyranny, Modula.
Jesus, at least spell my fucking name right. Also, it’s ‘corroborated’ rather than ‘collaborated’, which has a meaning not exactly the same. And overall, I would pick the wrong and divisive course of this country as created by witnesses to the Brown shooting over anything you have to offer. I mean, you move from asking if I was there to stating that there are many hidden witnesses who would offer the truth. You don’t know even seem to know the difference between making something up (you) versus having an opinion (me). But the bottom line is if you are clueless enough to think that Wilson’s story was convincing, or that all of the witnesses who gave vague accounts of Michael Brown stumbling forward versus those who said he had his hands up, you should try to have someone read to you what other educated people under 45 believe, because for the most part even places like Reason are calling bullshit. It’s not me or my obvious love for tyranny; it’s my common sense and ability to think that has produced my conviction that Wilson is lying through his teeth. And it’s not unusual: it comes from having actual experience in the world, rather than watching it on TV.
“Ice is right about leaving a body where it is, being a common practice, especially exemplified by cases like this one where disputed accounts are certain to come into play.”
Not for4 hours.
“And can you tell me which “community leaders†they should have contacted?”
I would know who to call here. So would our police. It says a lot about the police force that they did not know.
“Three or four over several months in a country of 310 million”
3 or 4 so egregious they make the national news. Using the iceberg principle, there are probably many more unreported or near misses that survived. But then, if you are not in the high risk group it probably doesn’t matter.
At any rate, it was poorly handled by the local police. It is also interesting that the attempt to vilify Brown continues.
Steve
Modulo,
Where to start…
I don’t know what you are basing your info on regarding the evidence introduced to the Grand Jury. However, people who have read through the bulk of testimonies and evidence submitted have said it shouldn’t have even gone to a Grand Jury — it was so obvious that there was no basis for an indictment.
Nonetheless, Wilson was judged by numerous eyewitness accounts — many who changed their stories, others who blatantly lied. The ones deemed credible were those that didn’t falter under more scrutiny, along with those who were in sync with the autopsy results.
The emotionalism of the streets is not evidence. It’s hyped drama, similar to what was experienced as the justice of the old west or KKK Southern kind of justice. It serves to soothe mob mentality not necessarily deliver truth — especially if it’s inconvenient truth. Maybe that’s what you want.
You never fail to amuse with your bizarre theories, Madonna.
It is also interesting that the attempt to vilify Brown continues.
And, why don’t you ever include the fact that Brown was part of a strong-armed robbery (minor as it might have been) just minutes before his confrontation with Wilson? Doesn’t his state of mind, his conduct, his intimidating behavior with the store clerk deserve any mention?
I know that the media has talked about Wilson’s dysfunctional childhood in trying to link some kind of hidden agenda to his interaction with Brown. But, anything linking Brown to dysfunctional, criminal behavior (during the course of the evening he was killed) is not of value?
This NRO article goes head to head with some of the fallacies and nonsensical gyrations spewed by the NYTs dealing with Ferguson. Since this publication is so revered by liberal readers, it’s usually processed and repeated without a questioning burp as to it’s factual content. Here, though, Heather Mac Donald takes issue with what she calls the “elite narrative” of what happened, picking out the inaccuracies, hyperbole, describing the actions after the verdict was read as being what it was — mayhem.
Jan,
I live in Central Brooklyn, or whatever the hell it is that Heather MacDonald envisions as such. East Flatbush, Bed-Stuy, Brownsville, East NY–in none of these places does anybody act like Michael Brown without a death wish. Heather MacDonald is a moron. She doesn’t even intend to talk about what’s going on near where she says. Her target audience is in some suburb, stuck in 1973.
What’s more, you don’t grasp, because you are being lied to, but there’s no defense coming your way. The last backlash against civil rights in the 70s had some intellectual back-up to it. People could point to James Q. Wilson or the Moynihan report and say that liberalism did the blacks in, not whites, and thus, those doing the pointing were on the side of progress.
Not so this time. It’s goatees, shaved heads, arsenals, men for date rape, Christians who fear persecution by recently same-sex married couples. There’s no one left but the trash. It may not matter to you but Jan Jr.–how will he or she fare? You sound terrible, and to your credit I doubt you care, but your spawn, unless they stab you in the metaphorical heart, how exactly will they get by with your attitude?
I don’t think it is valid to presume that either Brown or Wilson were acting rationally. My interpretation (perhaps as wrong as everyone else’s, but it’s my opinion) is that Brown was in a celebratory mood, and high, but it all quickly started crashing down around him and he panicked. He was likely still on an adrenaline high as well after the robbery, and he didn’t consider rationally whether it made sense to attack the cop.
Likewise, Wilson encountered a guy who intimidated him but thought he could use his badge and car to het the advantage. He may have had a bit of a hero complex after his previous commendation (for an act of overpowering a black youth during a stop where he was also alone- not sure what is up with that but it sure seems like an area for review if it is common practice for these guys to go out on calls alone.)
Modulo, I think you have a point about what inferences we could possibly draw from a prior criminal record, but it seems to me this kid was probably in the gray zone- not a hardened criminal who would consider his odds and know better than to rough up a cop but also not a dumb first offender who’d gotten caught up in some criminal act for the first time (the type who would react reflexively with submission.)
Modulo,
Your response is predictable — mock the article’s writer, slam me for posting it, while emotionally emoting about anything and everything (including where you live and the people you deplore).
However, nothing factually tangible was refuted, like the statistical evidence of police abuse or the proportional crimes arising from the black population. Also, excluded from your diatribe was a serious discussion about the Grand Jury’s findings. It seems, in your world, presumption of Wilson’s guilt was a done-deal, and no other details about Brown’s conduct or culpability apply. Even the riots, burning of businesses — 12 to the ground; another 60 damaged — are either addressed nor condemned by people like you. Are such chaotic actions viewed as a mere fallout — collateral damage, so to speak — derived from justifiable anger towards massive civil right’s violations by police?
Furthermore, had everything about this Grand Jury been the same, with substantiated witness and forensic evidence this time indicating Wilson gunned down a man with his hands up, I would have supported an indictment of this officer. But, that’s not the way it went down. Consequently, the contempt you’re attempting to wring out of this, towards anyone pointing this out, is misplaced and destructively myopic, if seeking real racial trust and justice for what happened in Ferguson.
Jan,
You have not read anything about the Grand Jury testimony, because otherwise you would be aware of how many witnesses said that Brown’s hands were up, and how many said that he was fired upon as he was fleeing. And so on. Here’s a handy <a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/newly-released-witness-testimony-tell-us-michael-brown-shooting/"chart breaking it down.
And my was to point out that the claim–that black kids leap for officer’s guns all the time in Central Brooklyn, contrary to what the fey liberals believe–is complete bullshit. And the rest of her facts fall along the lines of indignation that the police are not perceived as saviors and with the utmost of sanctimony and worship. Incidentally, NYC released its crime figures, and showed that with the mass reduction in stop-and-frisks conducted over the past three years there has also been a fall in violent crime. Cause? Probably not. But shills like MacDonald were quite happy to warn people about the sheer folly of not letting police target black teenagers at will, and how 1990 and squeegee men lurked right around the corner. I doubt that this will change her, because her job is to fire off crap for the rubes.
CStanley,
You are probably close to the truth with the encounter, except for the fact that there’s no evidence that Brown was ever arrested for anything. And if he was, the question arises of what happened differently? The dehumanization needed by racists to explain everything forbids any of these questions. Black people are crazy suicidal crafty thugs, preying on communities and yet somehow liable to freak out and reach for a cop’s gun at any second. Not even their parents are immune. They have the temerity to have fond loving feelings for their monster offspring, going so far as to give them nicknames like Gentle Giant. Don’t they understand how crazy that it is? And that someone called Ice or Jan a racist? Priorities, people.
I ignore the Cosby stories for similar reason, how would I know what happened?
One can always weight the balance of probabilities, as Mycroft Holmes puts it.
In the Cosby case, there’s just too much for me to believe he’s innocent any more. This is made easy, however, by the fact that my belief in his (at least partial) guilt has no consequence whatsoever.
If sitting as a juror, a different standard would apply to my thinking entirely, as it should.
however, the amateurishness of the Ferguson PD made matters much worse.
Agreed. However, what does one really expect from what is essentially a middling- to small-town PD?
Wilson’s story makes him sound like someone who was suicidal and deeply disturbed, and not a hardened criminal.
No, it makes him sound like someone stoked on adrenaline & testosterone, & possibly drugs. Apparently you are a female and have never been around young men, or this would sound typical enough to you.
And guess what? He had just committed a crime, and was showboating by being an asshole blocking traffic. Adrenaline? Check!
He was an 18 yo male. Testosterone? Check!
And the tox reports found that he had, in fact, used drugs recently. (I know cannabis* was confirmed, not sure if anything else was. Also, not sure how easily one can check for some of the newer things, like the zombie-making bath salts.) So drugs? Check!
As for not believing Wilson’s account: Several parts of it have been corroborated by other witnesses, even by Dorian Johnson. So apparently you don’t believe any of that, but do believe that Brown was shot in the back, and then Wilson stood over him and empty a clip into him.
#Fail.
* And I don’t want to hear any of that crap about pot making people mellow. My brother used to beat the shit out of his wives and girlfriends while higher than Bob Marley (he was legendary amongst a certain age of Central Florida pot heads for the amount he smoked), and I’ve seen and heard of enough other cases of people bombed out of their minds on pot getting violent. It makes MANY people mellow, but not all. And the difference between many and “almost everyone” is vast, much less the difference between many and all.
“You have not read anything about the Grand Jury testimony, because otherwise you would be aware of how many witnesses said that Brown’s hands were up, and how many said that he was fired upon as he was fleeing. “
Modulo,
I haven’ t read the 1000 plus pages of the Ferguson Grand Jury evidence and testimony. Have you? However, it has been said that everything was given over to the jury — testimony that backed Wilson as well as numerous versions saying just the opposite. The most consistent eye witnesses, though, did not vary their accounts — accounts which also were compatible with the physical evidence. And, these accounts ran parallel to Wilson’s own testimony. Other people’s stories were either improbable (because they weren’t even there), did not sync with the evidence, or changed over time. And, Brown’s friend who was with him proved to be nothing more than an emboldened liar.
As far as MacDonald’s piece, you’re just working too hard to discredit her, lingering far too long on what was a mere reference point in her article — that relating to Central Brooklyn.
Finally, the racist angle is overused, acting as an incendiary label to incite “excusable” violence. IMO, fewer people are buying it. And, such careless accusations are eroding rather than building trust and better relationships between people of different ethnicities. Also, no one has begrudged Michael Brown’s parents love for their son. However, having them turn away and dismiss their son’s bad choices, his bully behavior with a store owner etc. isn’t being honest nor is it right. For parents who have been there, experiencing similar tough situations with their own children, we know it’s better to own their kid’s wrongs while loving them no matter what.
“It makes MANY people mellow, but not all. And the difference between many and “almost everyone†is vast, much less the difference between many and all.”
So true, Ice. For many it creates an angry, paranoid agitation, making a user very reactive to the mildest of interactions. They become ticking time bombs, who can lash out at someone who they might “believe” is dissing them — whether it’s true or not. Even someone’s eye-roll can create an unxpected violent reaction from a cannabis user. ER’s are also seeing a higher traffic flow generated from the untowards destabilizing effects of this not-so-mellow drug.
Also, it’s ‘corroborated’ rather than ‘collaborated’, which has a meaning not exactly the same.
So incredibly lame. Complaining about the spelling? Probably a typo compounded by the daemons of autocorrect. Of course, anyone dealing with a modern cell phone would know this, just as we all learned to recognize iPad jibberish several years ago when they first came out. Complaining about THAT? Zzzz…
As for Brown being fired upon while fleeing: Yes, Wilson’s own testimony corroborates that. But that’s not what witnesses said. They said he had been shot in the back. Oops, three autopsies, including one by the family’s hand picked ME, found that not to be the case.
Some of the witnesses on the “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” side also stated that Wilson had stood over Browns body and fired several shots into it. Didn’t happen.
Some of the issues with Wilson’s testimony that I’ve seen questioned at places like VOX, for example that Brown paused while wrestling thru the vehicle window with Wilson to give Dorian Johnson the cigarillos, were actually corroborated by witnesses. In this case, for example, by Dorian Johnson’s own testimony. Details matter.
As for broad charges of racism for every white that isn’t to the left of you? Get stuffed. It’s not even like most of the people here that think Wilson shouldn’t have been indicted haven’t (a) thought he fucked up in his handling of the situation, and (b) brought up other instances of much more questionable police behavior. (I’ve mentioned four from around central Florida myself. I’ve been bringing one of them up fairly often since it happened back in 2008. And yes, in that instance the suspect was black. Oops, so much for your dipshit narrative.)
Also, really, what evidence do you have that Wilson was on some sort of hunt? Minutes before the shooting occurred he had been assisting in a case in which a two year-old was having difficulties breathing. Do you really think he left that incident thinking, “Gonna kill me some nigger now”? Because that seems to be your repeated assertion.
Finally, blacks don’t have more run-ins with the law primarily because of racism. They have more run-ins with the law because they are more violent. Obama’s own Justice Department has provided rather damning stats on that front. Blacks have higher rates of violent crime than any other group. Young black men (I believe the demographic category is 15-34, or thereabouts) are astonishingly more violent than everyone else, including all other blacks. The most frequent victims of this violence are other blacks. I’m not going to quote the stats (I believe the ones I’m familiar with are from 2010), because no one would believe me if I did. But they’re all there at the DOJ website (and elsewhere) if anyone wants to look them up. That propensity to violence, more than anything else, is the source of the trouble.
But do continue on with the bullshit. It seems all you’ve got.
jan, I’d love to know if Brown’s domicile had been tossed for bath salts & the like. We’ve had a few spectacular cases of people on bath salts losing their minds and getting ultra-violent down here in Florida. (Most infamously, the case where someone started eating a homeless guy’s face in Miami in broad daylight, while the homeless man was still using it.) Or if there’s any history of it being used in Ferguson and areas immediately adjacent.
…
Finally, before I go to bed, I just have to laugh at the notion that I’m some lover of the police. The best interaction I ever had with a police officer was the day my father died. A couple of uniforms were sent out to take care of the paperwork. As they were leaving the young man told me, “Have a nice day.” Yeah, thanks for the laugh asshole, my father just died. It goes down hill from there.
Fortunately the father of the sheriff deputy that lived next door when I was a kid was more interested in the boy across the street than me. Also fortunately, the father of that other boy knew all about it (lots of connections to local law enforcement) and let the deputy know in no uncertain terms he would kill the deputy’s father if he so much as looked at his son or any of the other boys in the neighborhood. Neighborhood WATCH & SHOOT, bitchez!
The worst bit was also the bit I never think to mention, when I was basically battered by another sheriff’s deputy after a bad car accident. He was grabbing me by the hair at the scene and shoving my noodley body around, and later got thrown out the hospital by hospital security. He was grabbing charts out of doctors hands and screaming at them about wanting to get his hands on that punk (me). It seems the person driving the other car was a friend of his.
I don’t remember any of that, as along with all the broken bones I had a severe concussion. Thus I just don’t think of it often. (Weird having several days wiped from one’s memory. I don’t recommend the experience.)
But the wife of a Florida Highway Patrolman was at the scene and offered to testify if I went forward, and many people saw the stuff at the hospital. But between my injuries and my brother’s, and my mother still recovery from her coma and mystery illness, I just let it go. Frankly, there’s no point in fighting the law unless you’ve got damned fine attorneys.
But I’m sure with all that, and many more incidents as well, that I simply MUST be pro-police. I am, after all, white.
I am amazed at how people rely upon non-primary sources. Most of what is being written is third, fourth, fifth, or more levels removed from the primary. It is commentary based upon commentary based upon commentary and so on.
Today, access to primary sources is wide-spread. In the past, you had to go to the library or purchase new or used books.
An authoritative secondary source can be acceptable. Reading a physicists’ book to learn about String Theory would be acceptable. It might be necessary for the secondary source to use a translation. A Bible scholar probably cannot read the Hebrew or Greek primary documents, and relying upon translations would be acceptable.
My problem is that I am unwilling to concede that the commentators are better able to understand and process the primary sources. Too often, I have found the pundit has taken something out of context or never understood the original context.