…does not make it right. I don’t think this assertion from Tucker Carlson:
Clinton begat Bush, who produced Obama, whose lax border policies fueled the rise of Trump.
can be defended on the basis of the facts. If you don’t believe me, compare net Mexican migration under the three presidents. There are reasons to believe that President Obama believes in more or less open legal immigration or to believe that his position is confused or purely political, if you’d prefer, “nuanced”.
I don’t think the “rise of Trump” has anything to do with Democrats at all. I think it’s purely a Republican phenomenon, fueled by the internal contradictions of the present Republican coalition.
I think you are mostly correct here, but I do think the fear that all of these immigrants will vote for Democrats is also a factor, so in that sense at least, Democrats are a factor. Plus, lets face it, the GOP just loves guys who talk like a bad ass.
Since you cited the article, I did love this quote.
“When was the last time you stopped yourself from saying something you believed to be true for fear of being punished or criticized for saying it?”
Not saying stuff because you are afraid you will be criticized. Wow! That is really what about 90% of the PC claims are about. Conservatives just can’t tolerate criticism. They criticize someone or something, they get criticized back, then they cry PC. It is really tempting to call them a bunch of pussies (and, OK, sometimes I do) but I think this is mostly the result of being able to live carefully in your own bubble. Makes it difficult to tolerate any criticism or difference in opinions. Much easier to just cry PC and walk away. It is actually a real joy to find people from the right nowadays who will actually try to defend ideas and policies rather than just cry PC and think they won the argument.
Steve
I think the Democrats are ‘responsible’ for Trump in that the generic urban enclave liberal doesn’t get immigration as an issue and this drives the generic Republican crazy.
Read that Carlson article–he’s talking about immigration and jobs but he’s also talking about how fancy elitists don’t take the bus so they don’t see the Mexicans riding it. There’s a ton of hypocrisy going on in the world of the urban enclave liberal eager to be in the right neighborhoods and schools, but one thing that is not going on is being bothered by Mexicans on public transportation. And it’s not because the urban enclave liberal doesn’t take public transportation. It’s just not a problem, and it pisses off conservatives because it makes them appear to have more problems with race than everybody else.
Clinton begat Bush, who produced Obama, whose lax border policies fueled the rise of Trump.
What was it I said the other day? Oh yes, it was
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA – *****gaaasssssppp***** – HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
yes, steve, they’re worried about criticism. For example, nothing bad, career-wise, ever happened to anyone who ever openly opposed gay marriage. Or who questioned why MLK Jr. got a federal holiday. Yeah, it’s all about hurt feelings.
(The gay marriage thing was a public bit. The other one involves a former go-worker, who was told that if he came in to work on MLK Jr. day one more time, he would be fired.)
I would tweak that — if Trump is elected President, Obama will have helped create the atmosphere that led to his successor, just like the Presidents before him.
And I don’t think the relevant causal chain is that policy-oriented. Obama has probably not been discernibly different than his predecessors on immigration, by some metrics he was better than Bush on enforcement for a long time.
No, Obama has been technocratic and aloof, and has often used undemocratic means to achieve his objectives. Not necessarily illegal or unconstitutional, which is a separate issue. But when he couldn’t get legislation like immigration reform, he used executive power. Any opposing party would seek to delegitimize a President for doing that. There has been a lot of similar examples, the effect of which is to increase populism.
Clinton’s ethical lapses made Bush more appealable. Bush’s incompetence in handling the Iraq War, Katrina, and the coming recession made Obama more appealing. Obama has made a more populist candidate more appealing.
“I do think the fear that all of these immigrants will vote for Democrats is also a factor.”
American political parties have tried to import voters for hundreds of years, it isn’t new. And the Rove plan to make the Bush II administration the start of a new broad coalition with expanded Hispanic immigration was at the root of immigration policy. Its not really “fear,” but a question of whether it will work. Abraham Lincoln was very pro-German immigration. The Irish and Mormans, not so much.
Obama has probably not been discernibly different than his predecessors on immigration…
That is a true statement, thus my laughter.
…by some metrics he was better than Bush on enforcement for a long time.
That I don’t buy. The numbers reek of being cooked. And for all the talk of how Mexicans are self-deporting (which concept Democrats say isn’t possible when some rightie says that’s what would happen if employment laws were enforced), the crush of people at the Southern border doesn’t appear to have abated. And I don’t really care if they’re Mexican, Guatemalan or Swiss, what matters is that they’re coming. But we’ve got all the people we need and then some. So maybe try stopping them for a change.
. . .,
I’m pretty sure bosses control when their employees do and don’t work the other 364 days per year.
I actually think the Democratic Party had a great deal to do with the rise of Trump. We need a party that’s about the working man or woman and that is meant to be the Democrats. But we’ve been sending a clear message that we are not interested in working people unless they are also part of a minority group – black, gay, Muslim, etc…
That is not to minimize the greater damage done by the GOP. The GOP post-1968 has done a fantastic job of convincing working people that racial differences should be front and center, playing the old Dixiecrat divide-and-rule game.
But this is a dynamic situation – the GOP plays its race card, the Democrats respond with one of their own.
What we have now is in my opinion a justifiable concern over immigration which is being cast by the GOP as “Keep out the Messicans!” (but secretly ‘keep ’em coming to drive down wages’) and by the Democrats as, “How dare you question the logic of Muslim immigration!” (but secretly ‘maybe Muslims will be a new voting bloc, yay!) Of these two messages the one most likely to resonate with a white working person is the GOP message, the one most suited to minorities comes from the Democrats.
But now along comes The Donald to say, “No, really, I mean keep out the Mexicans and the Muslims.” A white working person who earns less than his father, and certainly less than he had reason to hope for, hears the same old GOP message, but now shorn of the hypocrisy. So it’s working with voters. In part it’s racism, but you can’t dismiss it as just racism when there is genuine economic logic to it as well.
There are lots of other issues involved too, particularly abortion, but at its heart is the fact that neither party is exactly wearing itself out trying to help Average Working Joe. The AWJ isn’t politically attuned, and may be rather dumb, but not so dumb he can’t read the numbers on his paycheck. AWJ knows how he feels, and he knows when his paycheck won’t cover rent, even if he’s confused as to larger causes and issues. It would help if AWJ wasn’t quite so stupid as to let himself be manipulated by the Plantation Owners into confusing social issues and economic ones, but that takes us back to the Democrats who are supposed to be the ones standing up for white AWJ as well as black AWJ and Muslim AWJ. We took our eye off economic justice in favor of social justice, forgetting that people tend to be more tolerant when they aren’t shit-scared of being homeless.
Had we Democrats done our job better, there’d be no Trump. We should have found a way to get around GOP race-baiting. We should have found a way to reach out to working people. We didn’t.
I think you’re kidding yourself, Michael. Over the period of the last couple of decades the only group for whom Democrats have really brought home the bacon is gays. They’re only interested in blacks and Hispanics on election day.
And at least in Chicago the only working people whose backs our Democrats are protecting are public employees. There’s a lot of rhetoric but that’s about it.
The Democratic Party at the national level has been fully technocratized. It’s been remade in the image of Robert Rubin.
Do you mean the Chamber of Commerce part of the right wing cheap labor loving coalition?
Yeah, these ethnic controversies, most of the Euro-American GOP people don’t realize, and the left Euro-Am labor working class as well, have gone on so long and have so many minority-(cum-majority) members willing to get all militant about the matter, that its not a tea room or tea party/ shouting match / whining resolution any longer.
I wonder of anyone has proposed to Trump his development of a paramillitary Trumpite wing. He’d likely be aghast…
I’m pretty sure bosses control when their employees do and don’t work the other 364 days per year.
It wasn’t his boss, it was HR. You ever heard of anyone being threatened with termination for working on any other day of the year? It was specifically made clear to him that as a white man his working on MLK Jr day was a sign of disrespect for black people, and that could not be tolerated.
And FWIW, he was a salaried manager, and generally worked whenever he felt the need.
Speaking for myself, I’ve just had it up to here with pols who focus group, finger in the wind, feel my pain, pretend black accents in Atlanta, promise to fight for me, hit all the right notes, but LIE’ LIE’ LIE. Who are Repubs to rally to? Cruz? Wife works at Goldman Sachs, campaign funded by loans from same. Bought and paid for.
Its the LIES I tire of. Obama’s a lying Pol. Knew it from the start. Great performing speaker, but all you had to do was Read his speech instead of being mesmerized by the delivery.
Is Trump real? Yes, No prompter, no preparation, no lies. That’s his appeal. But I would also predict that if elected, there will be no WALL, no mass deportations, no audit of the FED. No Pres. is a dictator. But I still think it would be fun to watch him use the bully pulpit for four or eight years
“by the Democrats as, “How dare you question the logic of Muslim immigration!†(but secretly ‘maybe Muslims will be a new voting bloc, yay!)”
The proposal was for 10,000 a year. Yup, when they all vote for the Democrats they will kick GOP butt. After all by 2050 they will make up a whole 2.1% of our population.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/07/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
Ice- You, there is a whole industry devoted to trying to prove the harms of PC. Mostly doesn’t happen and is BS. However, the article specifically said they are afraid of just being criticized.
Steve
Steve:
10,000 a year for how many years? Concentrated in which states and cities? We’d be very happy to see 10 or 20,000 more Democrats in a handful of states like Florida, Ohio or Virginia. And will support for immigration have the additional effect of pushing American Muslims deeper into the Democratic camp? Yes, it will.
I don’t think electoral math is the only reason, but it inevitably plays a part. The Kumbaya mentality is a big contributor, too, because what gives us better ‘feels’ than importing large numbers of anti-semites, homophobes and male supremacists? I feel warm all over when I think of it.
We have now spent months with Hillary and Obama obsessing over Muslims while offering nothing but scorn to struggling, Americans who are looking for a little attention from their government. And liberals need to do some basic electoral math, because in the last election 72% of the vote was white. 13% black. 10% Latino. 4% Asian. The black vote is all-in. They are not growing as a demo. The Latino vote went 70% D, the Asian vote ditto. But even 100% of our minorities (throw in gays) still only comes to maybe a third of voters. So where do we find the votes to reach 51%? White people. And what are we doing to woo those white voters? Talking about Muslims and Mexicans, free college for obnoxious college brats, and mail servers.
Tell me, which part of the Democratic Party message appeals to an insurance salesman in Ohio or a truck driver in Virginia. Tell me what we’re doing for an out–of-work steel worker. Spoiler alert: fuck-all. We’re actually insisting on bringing in more people to take their jobs. But hey, it’s OK, because they’ll get family leave from the jobs they don’t have.
Every time we lose 1% of white voters we need to find it somewhere else. The black vote? Nope, in fact we’ll lose some of the black vote without Obama. The Asian vote? Nope, not enough. The Latino vote? Yep, that’s the target.
But 1% of the white vote is about 860,000 people, while 1% of the Latino vote in 2012 was about 120,000. In other words, a very slight reduction in white voters requires a huge increase in Latino voters. If we get to the point of losing 3 or 4 more points off the white vote there’s basically no way for us to win. And it gets way worse when you look at it state by state because Latino voters are concentrated in reliably blue California or reliably red Texas.
The eligible Latino vote in Pennsylvania is 4.5%, Virginia 4.6%, Ohio 2.3%, Wisconsin 3.6%, New Hampshire 2.2%, Michigan 3.1%. You may recognize those as states Democrats have to win. In each state a relatively small fall-off in white voters simply cannot be made up by Latino voters. If we turn off white voters in a state like Pennsylvania, we’re fucked. There are nowhere near enough Latinos to compensate. We carried Ohio by just 100,000 votes and if we alienate even a small percentage of the white vote that 2.3% Latino vote ain’t gonna save us.
Democrats are being stupidly smug about a Trump race. If Hillary can’t get her email mess under control, she’ll lose. If Bernie Sanders does, well, anything, he’ll lose. We are in serious danger of a Trump win, a win which will come in significant degree because we handed him the issue of Muslim immigration.
I mean, honest to God, Steve, how out of touch with reality do Democrats have to be not to understand what a white working man is hearing from them? We look like we are prioritizing people who most Americans see as enemies over our own people. The Democrats are showing more love and understanding to people who despise everything about us (but our money), while heaping ridicule and scorn on American citizens. Stupid.
Michael you are absolutely correct. The “people”, meaning the majority of Americans are now afraid of Muslims. A good way to get elected is to play to those fears. Playing to the fear of others is generally good electoral politics. It has helped the GOP at the local and national level for many years. Let’s face it, if you want to get elected it is hard to go wrong telling the people what they want to hear. Heaven knows Trump understands that at the most visceral of levels. History shows us that populists who are able to scapegoat minority groups successfully have gone on to take power in many countries.
That said, I think i am less interested in electoral politics per se than you are. If I have to give up my core values to win, it just isn’t worth it to me. Certainly at the work level in the years I have been running our corporation I have been approached at least three times i can think of off the top of my head with proposals that would have made our group or myself much wealthier. I (and we) have turned them all down. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing.
Steve
Steve:
Well that’s all very high minded but I’m not impressed by the idea of prioritizing private virtue over the general good. It smacks of narcissism. It calls to mind the presidency of Ralph Nader.
If my precious liberal friends elect Trump or Cruz, it’s the end of all immigration for a long time. It’s the end of a lot of people’s hopes. It’s the end of SCOTUS as any sort of brake. It may be the end of the United States as we know it.
But hey, so long as you feel good.