In his latest opinion piece George Friedman paints a pretty bleak portrait of the medical establishment:
t is the medical system that was charged with protecting us from this disease. No institution can possibly be infallible, and each is limited by its knowledge and culture. The medical research establishment did not understand the nature of the disease. It still is uncertain whether catching the disease provides immunity or whether we will spend our lives in endless recurrence. It has at the moment no treatment that might mitigate the disease nor any that might prevent it. The culture that medical research has presented and projected to the world is that it is intensely at work, but that its work cannot be time-sensitive. It cannot be hurried, but its process must take its course.
This is not an unreasonable standpoint, but it has consequences. The only solution the medical system had was to prevent the spread of the disease by sequestration, the separation of individuals from each other. This may have had some mitigating effect on the disease, but it is having a disastrous effect on society. It is not hyperbolic to say that we are heading for a depression. The best available medical solution reduced the available labor force, reduced consumption and in many countries forced extravagant government infusions of money, infusions for which we will pay later. A depression is a disease in its own right. Poverty and despair cause their own deaths, but it is the loss of expectations and hopes that is the highest cost. I say we seem to be heading toward depression, not that we are there. Still, the danger is there and it is not trivial.
The mitigation of the spread of the disease has, apart from the social pressures of sequestration, generated a significant economic crisis. The response has been myriad decisions based not on certainty but on calculated risk. The government does not know that the trillions of dollars to stabilize the economy will abort a depression, but it does know that the cost of a depression justifies taking a risk and racking up debt. Each of us, in some small or large way, has engaged in calculated risk.
The moral foundation of medicine is that it must, first of all, do no harm. By “harm†it means that no action of the physician or the researcher should harm the patient. This imposes a meticulous discipline on medicine. No drug is released until it is certain that it will do no harm. This requires meticulous testing and evaluation, and that takes time. Part of the medical research process is imposed by the complexity and mystery of the subject. Part of it is due to the moral aversion to risk. And that aversion to risk can turn a virtue into a vice.
The medical profession cannot eliminate risk, but doing no harm makes it a moral imperative. Other systems operate not on a zero-risk principle but on the principle of calculated risk.
That’s an interesting point and explains why physicians should not be making public policy. The focus of the physician is properly on his or her patient. Would it be unethical for a physician to advocate a course of action that would benefit society at large or humanity at the expense of her or his patients? I think it would be. Conversely, it would not be unethical for a physician to advocate a course of action good for her or his patients but deleterious for the society at large. Different callings properly have different ethical obligations.
1) I think there is a straw man being set up here. To the best of my knowledge no physician is making decisions about closing down. They give advice on how to slow down and treat the illness. Politicians make the actual decision to close, hopefully with he advice of others with other expertise. (Again, let me acknowledge that many, many , may other people have expertise in their subject matter of interest.) That means the political class has to make the difficult decisions.
If what he wants is for docs giving advice to make up stuff and lie to make the decision easier, then I would oppose that. Sorry. If you want to discuss the trade offs, lets at least be honest about it.
2) Reading the rest of the article I came away with the idea that he is clueless about what is going on. Yes, lots of people, I am one, hope that we get large scale studies so that we can know what really works or doesnt. Meanwhile, almost everything we are doing is stuff that is unproven. No one is waiting until we have proven 100% proven treatments. Even stuff we have done in the past that worked for respiratory diseases is being used in completely new ways. Anyone who had the intellectual curiosity to actually ask would know that is what we are doing. This is amazingly bad commentary.
Where does that come from? Why would anyone even write something like that? I have to think it comes from the unprecedented interjection of political figures into the details of medical management. Hope that never happens again. We really, really dont need celebrity based medical care.
Steve
The advice should be about objectives rather than about ways in which to accomplish the objectives. That is pre-conditioning the solutions.
That is silly. OK, the goal is to have fewer deaths in the long run. That is really what you want your medical advisers to suggest? You really dont want them offering suggestions on how to achieve goals? Does that apply only to physicians or will that apply to others with expertise in other areas? (Again, I fully recognize that many other people have expertise in many other areas.) We just kind of hope that the decision makers will know what to do? You have infinitely more confidence in politicians than do I.
Steve
No but I recognize that expert opinions do not build support which is what is needed to make a policy effective. If you don’t like the politicians we have, maybe you are voting for the wrong politicians.
Building support for policy is the politician’s job. Even if it’s not the perfect policy. It maybe a decade before we know what that would be. There will always be differing views of the correct path, but in times when every decision will result in blood, sweat, and tears, tearing down our leaders to score resume marks for journalists is extremely bad form.
Also, IMHO,
We need to continue working combinations of existing antivirals. Something will turn up.
I think this is mostly a policymaker issue. They can’t/shouldn’t ask “what should we do” in a vacuum without any criteria. But it seems that is happening a lot as a way to avoid accountability – they can simply say “I was listening to the experts” and then any blame can be shifted.
The advice will depend on policy goals. If the policy goal is to avoid deaths to the greatest extent possible above all other considerations, then the relevant experts will give one set of recommendations. If the policy goal is something else such as balancing outcomes, or focusing on protecting the most vulnerable, or limiting societal and economic disruption, then the expert recommendations will be different.
But in many cases, that’s not happening. Policymakers are not setting criteria or leading – they are simply regurgitating what the experts say, and usually they choose the experts that say what they want to hear.
That’s right, Andy. IMO every staff guy in the history of the world has always thought that he/she should be setting the policy to which every manager has responded “you don’t understand all of the factors—just your narrow specialty”.
We have a major problem that our political leadership is very weak. That isn’t limited to Trump. IMO it’s due to changes in the pool of candidates and how elections are conducted.
Andy is closer to what should be done. The people making decisions, and this is generally true beyond political decisions, should set goals and metrics then ask those with expertise how to achieve them. Then it is responsibility of the person in charge to “sell” the policy or plan.
So in this case a governor, or POTUS, should have a team of medical advisers, economic advisers, etc. They should ask for options. What do we do to minimize deaths, minimize economic effects some combinations in between. Ask business leaders what was needed to make those choices work for them. On and on.
Really, what you ask is so bizarre I have to ask you how even just one detail would work. So the medical expert says our goal is to preserve lives. How does the politician even know to work from there and know that we need PPE? Trust me. Almost no governors even knew N 95s existed before this crisis. If he can only ask experts for goals who is going to tell them that they need PPE, or testing, or new drugs, etc.
Steve
In an investment committee meeting yesterday the resident “world is ending†member announced at one point that 90% of doctors agree….that, paraphrasing, well, the world was ending. You can imagine my response.
I’ve seen enough interviews now to know that the “experts†are sharply divided, and the data on any issue surrounding this virus is suspect. Perhaps the only things that are clear, although not with precision, are: the disease is not nearly as deadly as early alarmist predictions, it is worst for older people, especially with co-morbidity factors (well, yeah), heavy quarantine is at best very loosely correlated with mortality results, and latitude has an effect. I include that last one simply because Dave says he’s seen evidence and I don’t know him to traffic in wild speculation.
And yet we have chosen the most blunt force approach based upon a narrow set of measured outcomes prescribed by a narrow set of “experts†(or quacks) who can’t even agree among themselves, all while granting near Oracle status to one guy. And that blunt approach has very visible and measurable downsides. It’s like treating a scraped knee with amputation.
Here is just one “two sides to every story†example with respect to masks.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/megan-fox/2020/05/14/neurosurgeon-says-face-masks-pose-serious-risk-to-healthy-people-n392431
There are two sides to that story, but only if you resort to the same tactics that the anti-tobacco people used. This is right out of their textbook. First, it is a retired 74 y/o guy. Why couldn’t they find a practicing doc? Next, a neurosurgeon. Not someone who has some expertise in pulmonary physiology, or critical care expertise. (Some neurosurgeons do work in ICUs and most have pts in the ICU at some time, but as a rule they are not intensivists.)
Next, he keeps switching back between N 95s and regular surgical or cloth masks. People can retain CO2 with N95s (also a reported problem with PAPRS) but I have never personally seen, heard of or seen a study or normal healthy people not oxygenating well with an N 95. We wear them up to 12 hours at a time. People who already have respiratory issues would be different. HOWEVER, no one is recommending that people routinely wear N95s at home or out on the streets. Surgical masks or the cloth masks people use dont cause either of those problems. Do people get headaches? Yup, they can be uncomfortable and they make some people anxious, but they dont really generate enough resistance to cause issues with either O2 Sats or CO2 retention.
In short, they dont make healthy people sick. We wear both regular surgical masks and N 95s in the OR for many hours in a row. People are not getting sick. (He knows that too, so he is lying to carry out an agenda.)
Last of all do they stop the spread of disease. Ok, he is definitely correct that there is no double blind study showing masks stop the spread of Covid, but we dont have double blind tests on anything for Covid. If we follow that standard we should just let everyone die. There are a number of studies on the issue. Not sure if I have read all of them, but probably most. They generally fall into 3 groups. They work, but they reduce spread10%-20%. They fail because people dont actually wear them. They didnt make much difference. Among these you have to choose the studies that you think were best done and most applicable to the current situation. It looks to me like those closest to what we would actually use them for support that they make a small difference. The at home flu study in particular. Different people may’ve different takes on those studies. Finally you also have the lab studies that look at droplet and aerosol spread when wearing a mask. Those clearly show less spread.
Steve
As the pandemic mandates stay in place, or in some cases grow even more rigorous, it occurs to me people have generally divided themselves into two groups – those who ritualistically follow rules touted by the “experts,†and those who question those rules.
Here in CA, specifically LA, the rules have been extended way into the summer, with an add-on that masks must be wore everywhere, once a person leaves their home space. Other trivial public health admonishments absurdly abound everywhere, including one saying people can walk on wet sand, but not sit on dry sand.
In my own neighborhood, cracks are developing between these groupings – those who robotically follow these guidelines, no matter how unreal they are, and those who are resisting them because of their senselessness. The topic of masks has been the most recent neighborhood dividing point, with shaming and snitching on others being the behavior demonstrated by those who view mask wearing as a must-do, versus those who support moderating the need for masks – only wearing them in more crowded areas. Being involved with such back-and-forth conversations has been both enlightening and surprising to me, in how quickly some people fall behind government enforcement, without so much as a whimper – seemingly beset more by fear than reason or common sense. Unlike what some seem to realize, there is still no confirmed science, let alone consensus of medical opinions regarding the merits of healthy, non-medical people wearing masks or abiding by endless shelter in place and social distancing mandates, to address this virus in the long term. In fact many medical personnel opine we may be doing more harm than good, in massively adopting too many over-protective legal arm twists . What has become abundantly clear is how destructive these prohibitive lockdowns have become to our economy, mental health, servicing secondary health issues, and maintaining struggling hospitals, especially in rural areas of the country
An interesting side note by one doctor reminds us that “public health protocols do not advocate for the quarantine of healthy people. A police state does that.†I think she has a point…