Facts and Honesty

The advice offered by Aaron E. Carroll in his New York Times op-ed on the trade-offs in managing the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic strikes me as pretty sensible:

Too many view protective measures as all or nothing: Either we do everything, or we might as well do none. That’s wrong. Instead, we need to see that all our behavior adds up.

Each decision we make to reduce risk helps. Each time we wear a mask, we’re throwing some safety on the pile. Each time we socialize outside instead of inside, we’re throwing some safety on the pile. Each time we stay six feet away instead of sitting closer together, we’re throwing some safety on the pile. Each time we wash our hands, eat apart and don’t spend time in large gatherings of people, we’re adding to the pile.

If the pile gets big enough, we as a society can keep this thing in check.

But rather than focus on the cumulative benefits of individual actions, our attention too often rests on the few who refuse to act safely. We rage online over a couple of people who throw a fit about wearing a mask in a store. We spend far less time being grateful that so many Americans do wear one.

We don’t need everyone to wear a mask. We need more people to wear masks. We need to be willing to wear a mask even if others refuse, because every little bit matters.

This kind of thinking holds true even for vaccines, which add a huge amount to the pile. We won’t need everyone to get one to reach herd immunity. We just need enough people to do so.

To keep the pile big enough, though, we need to be willing to trade some activities for others. If people want to play on a sports team, for instance, they should consider giving something up to do so. Increasing their risk by participating in a group activity should prompt them to reduce their risk the rest of the time.

But we aren’t very good at discussing trade-offs. We want it all. We want to eat in restaurants, crowd into houses, go to work and celebrate occasions en masse.

We could choose to engage in just some of those things. We could decide to get a massage or get our nails done or have a haircut — instead of demanding that all of these and more be available to us simultaneously.

From a policy perspective, we’ve been just as unwilling to sacrifice. Almost everyone thinks that opening schools is extremely important (myself included). But too few people have been willing to discuss what we might be willing to shut down to make that happen.

Two factors that would help in managing those trade-offs would be facts and honesty. From a quantitative standpoint how much does wearing facemasks in closed indoor spaces reduce the transmission of the disease? How much in the out-of-doors? How much does six feet of social distancing reduce the transmission of the disease? How about three feet?

Whether the answers are 30% or 3% makes a difference. It marks the difference between measures which are meaningful cumulatively and those that are if not meaningless mostly symbolic. Unfortunately, we simply don’t know the answers to those and thousands of other questions. That’s where honesty comes in.

Also unfortunately neither trade-offs, quantitative decision-making, nor honesty are the strong suits of elected officials. I think it would facilitate addressing the spread of the diseases if elected officials were frank about their objectives including acknowledging when they’ve made mistakes. People could assess whether the means being used were successful or not. Don’t expect people to trust the judgments of elected officials forever.

10 comments… add one
  • Drew Link

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=Coronavirus+trend+in+South+Carolina&tf=U2VydmljZT1HZW5lcmljQW5zd2VycyBTY2VuYXJpbz1Db3JvbmFWaXJ1c01MIFBvc2l0aW9uPVRPUCBSYW5raW5nRGF0YT1UcnVlIEZvcmNlUGxhY2U9VHJ1ZSBQYWlycz1zY246Q29yb25hVmlydXNNTDtjb3VudHJ5Q29kZTpVU0E7c3RhdGVDb2RlOlNDO2ludGVudDpDaGVja0Nvcm9uYVRyZW5kO2Fib3ZlbmV3czpUcnVlOyB8&hs=XsK3ibVnxGdKVvzsIbUDv3SOQZFHZ6Dn2Eah%2bYsLzSU%3d&FORM=COVIDR

    South Carolina went hard lockdown April 3. Look what happened after that. They relaxed on August 3. (And are almost completely blowing off the restaurant rules.) Does it look like cases took off after that? Anyone?

    Look at Florida or Georgia. Reasonably similar lock down policy and timing. Same results. In fact, look at just about any state and you see a similar pattern.

    Certainly there is so much we don’t know about the virus. But I’ll be damned if I can find any correlation between lock down and case incidence. However we do know an awful lot about the devastating impact of lockdown on peoples lives. Just look around.

    If people feel the need to act, then in the face of almost complete ignorance about policy efficacy at least pick things that have minimal cost, and are age or comorbidity appropriate. Wash your damned hands. Masks maybe. Skip the crowded bars or other crowded venues unless you are young. And so on.

    What those graphs tell you is that there is no way to “stop the virus.” Its just a slogan. Pick any geography: an institution, city, county, state or country and you will see that rapid rise and right tailed fall. The best solution has always been to understand that and to take individual or institutional (eg nursing homes) oriented precautions.

  • steve Link

    Certainly works for Florida. Per the Orland newspaper they were reopening June 5, right when their uptick started.

    https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2020/03/20/timeline-the-spread-of-coronavirus-in-florida/

    If you go look at the South Carolina Covid timeline, title of post says Facts and Honesty so you ought to have some facts. South Carolina started takin some acts towards reopening in April, but the major events were taking place in May, right before infections took off. The home or work order was lifted May 4. Of special note, McMaster reinstituted partial restrictions on bars July 11th and right after that infections started to drop. Look at your chart.

    And none of this accounts for compliance. So maybe the final elimination of every aspect ended on August 3rd, but lifting git started much earlier. (Just google South Carolina covid timeline or covid pandemic in South Carolina. Putting in more than one link generally means a comment wont post or I would put it in for you.)

    Steve

  • Drew Link

    I live here, Steve, I know exactly what’s been going on. In public in general. At retail, in restaurants and bars etc. Reality doesn’t match your dates. I know you are wedded to the lockdown concept. You are wrong. It just hasn’t proven effective, useful or correlated. In Beaufort Cty – today – it is mandatory to wear a mask. Six foot distancing etc. That’s what you read. It’s actually the law. Guess what? It’s a joke. Violated everywhere you go. Same when we were in Florida. Guidelines and reality never met.

    Meanwhile, on the vaunted testing front:

    “According to The New York Times, potentially 90 percent of those who have tested positive for COVID-19 have such insignificant amounts of the virus present in their bodies that such individuals do not need to isolate nor are they candidates for contact tracing. Leading public health experts are now concerned that overtesting is responsible for misdiagnosing a huge number of people with harmless amounts of the virus in their blood.

    Most of these people are not likely to be contagious, and identifying them may contribute to bottlenecks that prevent those who are contagious from being found in time,” warns The Times.

    Heh. Who knows? No one knows.

    And best quip of the day: Mask wearing is like the WIN buttons in the Ford Administration. Even those donning masks have poorly fitted ones. Take them off so they can be heard while speaking etc. Yeah, masks are our salvation…..

  • steve Link

    “Reality doesn’t match your dates.”

    The dates are a matter of public record. Are you now saying that the dates published online, in the South Carolina newspapers and on the South Caroilina government sites are all incorrect? There really arent any facts that you guys will accept are there? The increase in infections did correlate with the relaxation of rules.

    Found the source of your quote as TownHall though by now I am sure every right wing site has carried it. So notice that TownHall article only cherry picked a paragraph from the NYT article. This was pretty much a discussion about the value of the newer fast tests to which I have been linking here just in case anyone was interested in the research going on and not just the politics like you are. The PCR tests catch patients while they still have a lower viral load. They are much less likely to be infectious at the time the test becomes positive. However, we dont know which of those people will continue to increase their viral load and become infectious. So a large percentage of that 90% will become infectious. All of this is why the new fast tests may be more valuable than first thought. If the positives they are missing are just the ones with a viral load too small to be picked up yet then they are probably picking up everyone (almost) who is infectious AND you get results in 15 minutes AND they are cheap, its a great test. I linked to a graph illustrating this. Link below, though I will be surprised if you would look at anything that contradicts your fixed beliefs.

    https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/08/rapid-tests.html

    “I know you are wedded to the lockdown concept.”

    What I have said all along that there has been evidence that they work, even better now that have seen the Florida and South Carolina data, but they cant go on forever. We need a balance between stuff we do to reduce virus spread and keep some semblance of normal life. From the very beginning have noted that restrictions on outdoor activities has seemed unlikely to do much. I said that when Florida girt criticized for opening beaches. For the last month or two I have been supporting masking, distancing and avoiding large scale indoor meetings. Add in surveillance testing so that you can have increased restrictions if needed. Even in South Carolina, per your public record, you reinstituted restrictions on bars and right after that infections decreased.

    Steve

  • We need a balance between stuff we do to reduce virus spread and keep some semblance of normal life. From the very beginning have noted that restrictions on outdoor activities has seemed unlikely to do much.

    I agree. But from the very beginning, at least here in Illinois, the governor’s objectives have, essentially, assumed that people would observe increasingly strict measures without increasingly strict enforcement. There are many things that should have been done that weren’t. The category of “essential workers” was absurdly broad. IMO most decisions were political rather than pragmatic.

  • Grey Shambler Link

    “decisions were political”

    Every decision maker has to weigh which call will let him keep his job.
    Schools opening and then closing when the virus spreads among students is just plain wrong. Viral spread is what you would expect, this is a controlled burn. After a month we’d see if immunity had set in. What other way is there, start, stop, start?
    Another thing, college sports should be played. People need the release. The adrenaline is being played out on our streets every night.

  • steve Link

    Its really bothersome that Drew is passing on falsehoods that lead to people not understand important stuff like testing, so let me amplify what we should want in testing. We should want tests to pick up infection when the viral load i slow, before they become infectious. They should be accurate. We should get results fast so the info is useful. They should be cheap so we can do lots. The PCR tests become positive at low viral loads and they are accurate, but results are slow and they are not cheap. So the fact that the PCR tests are positive before people are infectious is a positive. We can advise people to isolate with more success if can do that before they become infectious.

    A secondary goal could be that when we find out someone is positive with a low viral load the test would also tell us if their viral load would increase and they definitely would become infectious. I dont see any way to do that. Besides which it is likely that some people are more susceptible to infection so a low viral load person could still infect others.

    Steve

  • TarsTarkas Link

    ‘The PCR tests become positive at low viral loads and they are accurate, but results are slow and they are not cheap. So the fact that the PCR tests are positive before people are infectious is a positive.’

    How long does it take to get the results? One day? One week? Longer?

    You can’t consider the accuracy of the PCR test as a positive when by the time one learns they are infected they are now infectious and have been in contact with who know how many people. It’s literally closing the barn door after the tested horse has run off and infected the whole countryside with hoof-and-mouth.

    I think we’re stuck with letting the thing run through the population, in all its mutations, until it’s no longer a danger and doing our best to ensure the safety and recovery of the vulnerable.

  • steve Link

    When supplies are plentiful results come back in 2 days. When they are not 5-10 days. 2 days is still useful. 10 days not much.

    Steve

  • steve Link

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