Different Histories

In his piece at Bloomberg, after expressing a fond hope that the Ukrainians will prevail in their war against the Russian invasion of their country which I share, Niall Ferguson makes what I think is a very good point. Presidents Biden, Zelenskyy, Putin, and Xi are all turning to historic parallels to form their understanding of what’s going on now but they’re each turning to different history and interpreting it differently. As Dr. Ferguson sees it, the Biden administration is seeing the Russian invasion of Ukraine through the prism of the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan:

According to Sanger, who cannot have written his piece without high-level sources, the Biden administration “seeks to help Ukraine lock Russia in a quagmire without inciting a broader conflict with a nuclear-armed adversary or cutting off potential paths to de-escalation … CIA officers are helping to ensure that crates of weapons are delivered into the hands of vetted Ukrainian military units, according to American officials. But as of now, Mr. Biden and his staff do not see the utility of an expansive covert effort to use the spy agency to ferry in arms as the United States did in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union during the 1980s.”

He remarks:

It would indeed be wonderful if the combination of attrition in Ukraine and a sanctions-induced financial crisis at home led to Putin’s downfall. Take that, China! Just you try the same trick with Taiwan — which, by the way, we care about a lot more than Ukraine because of all those amazing semiconductors they make at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co.

The fascinating thing about this strategy is the way it combines cynicism and optimism. It is, when you come to think of it, archetypal Realpolitik to allow the carnage in Ukraine to continue; to sit back and watch the heroic Ukrainians “bleed Russia dry”; to think of the conflict as a mere sub-plot in Cold War II, a struggle in which China is our real opponent.

Meanwhile President Zelenskyy harnesses whichever historic parallel is most telling to the audience to which he is appealing:

Remember, both sides get to apply history. The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy is a master of the art, carefully tailoring his speeches to each national parliament he addresses, effectively telling one country after another: “Our history is your history. We are you.” He gave the Brits Churchill, the Germans the Berlin Wall, the Yanks Martin Luther King Jr., and the Israelis the Holocaust.

The history on which President Putin is relying is considerably older:

Yet such recent history is less significant to Putin than the much older history of Russia’s imperial past. I have made this argument here before. Fresh evidence that Putin’s project is not the resurrection of the Soviet Union, but looks back to tsarist imperialism and Orthodoxy, was provided by his speech at the fascistic rally held on Friday at Moscow’s main football stadium. Its concluding allusion to the tsarist admiral Fyodor Ushakov, who made his reputation by winning victories in the Black Sea, struck me as ominous for Odesa.

and the history to which President Xi is different yet again:

The Chinese also know how to apply history to contemporary problems, but they do it in a different way again. While Putin wants to transport post-Soviet Russia back into a mythologized tsarist past, Xi remains the heir to Mao Zedong, and one who aspires to a place alongside him in the Chinese Communist Party’s pantheon. In their two-hour call on Friday, according to the Chinese Foreign Ministry read-out, Biden told Xi:

50 years ago, the US and China made the important choice of issuing the Shanghai Communique. Fifty years on, the US-China relationship has once again come to a critical time. How this relationship develops will shape the world in the 21st century. Biden reiterated that the US does not seek a new Cold War with China; it does not aim to change China’s system; the revitalization of its alliances is not targeted at China; the US does not support “Taiwan independence”; and it has no intention to seek a conflict with China.

To judge by Xi’s response, he believes not one word of Biden’s assurances. As he replied:

The China-US relationship, instead of getting out of the predicament created by the previous US administration, has encountered a growing number of challenges. …

In particular … some people in the US have sent a wrong signal to “Taiwan independence” forces. This is very dangerous. Mishandling of the Taiwan question will have a disruptive impact on the bilateral ties … The direct cause for the current situation in the China-US relationship is that some people on the US side have not followed through on the important common understanding reached by the two Presidents …

Xi concluded with a Chinese saying: “He who tied the bell to the tiger must take it off.” Make of that what you will, but it didn’t strike me as very encouraging to those in Team Biden who have been pushing a hawkish line toward China.

I don’t have a great deal to add to that. There will be no perfect historic parallel. As a remark frequently incorrectly attributed to Sam Clemens puts it history does not repeat itself but it does rhyme. Those rhymes are composed of permanent national interests and human nature.

It might be worthwhile to pass along the way in which Russians see World War II, dramatically different from ours, which they call “the Great Patriotic War”. As the Russians tell it the Soviets won the war; the Americans were just standing around holding their coats while the Soviets worked.

I don’t think that either the Russian or American interpretation is quite right or complete. I think that during World War II the Soviets put up with hardships and setbacks we can barely imagine. They lost and lost and lost and lost and then they won. That victory was made possible because the Germans didn’t have the ability to fight on four fronts at once. Largely the Brits were doing massive damage to German industrial capability in the north, the Americans and Brits were advancing from the south, the Soviets from the east, and, nearly simultaneous with the Soviets’ westward advance into Poland, American and British forces began advancing from the west. The Germans were actually afraid of the Soviets; they knew how much damage they had absorbed since 1941 and recognized they were out for revenge. Besides, the German forces used to make war against the Soviet Union were needed elsewhere. It was the American and British advances form the north, south, and west that made the Soviet advances possible. It would actually be against the law to say that in Russia.

I honestly don’t know how the Chinese Communist Party views World War II. I wouldn’t be surprised if their view were similar to that of the Russians—that they won the war without a great deal of help.

18 comments… add one
  • steve Link

    I really dont understand this.

    ” archetypal Realpolitik to allow the carnage in Ukraine to continue; to sit back and watch the heroic Ukrainians “bleed Russia dry”;”

    Last I checked we were not ordering Ukraine to fight. They chose to fight and we are providing support. Niall is so intent on his narrative that he forgets Ukraine has agency. Also, I actually think that the overwhelming sentiment is that the war likely ends with Russia wining if Putin decides to persist. Not many people really think Russia will overthrow Putin. But, the pocketbook matters. Lifestyle matters. After years of economic improvement how long will Russians give Putin the popularity he needs if they have prolonged economic effects from this war? Xi? Lots of people, Dave included, have noted that it is incredibly important to maintain economic growth for his regime to stay stable.

    Does it really matter whether Putin is trying to reform the USSr or the empire? Maybe to pedants but in real life? Depending upon what year of the empire you are talking about it means essentially cos to fEastern Europe anyway.

    Steve

  • Does it really matter whether Putin is trying to reform the USSr or the empire?

    Yes, it does. If he’s trying to reform the Russian Empire, Germany, Hungary, and maybe even Poland are not threatened. If he’s trying to restore the USSR, they’re all threatened. So is all of Europe.

  • steve Link

    Maybe Poland. Reassuring.

    Nice piece on an American fighting in Ukraine. Ackerman did 5 deployments and fought in Fallujah so I think he has some grasp on the issue.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/american-volunteer-foreign-fighters-ukraine-russia-war/627604/

    Steve

  • CuriousOnlooker Link

    I don’t know about the CCP view, but for Chinese, WWII didn’t start in 1941, or 1939, but 1937; and it was China not America that took the main thrust of Japanese aggression.

    As for Xi’s saying; I think it is a Chinese version of the pottery barn rule — but Xi left it ambiguous as to whom it applies to.

  • Maybe Poland. Reassuring.

    How much of the territory of the present Poland actually belongs to Poland? From a statutory and therefore moral point of view, all of it, but from an ethnic, historical, etc. position? Some of that territory has changed hands so many times I have no idea.

  • steve Link

    If you go back to the Polish-Lithuanian confederacy Poland controlled a big chunk of Ukraine. I think we shouldn’t play this game with Putin because whatever land you may have controlled some time in the past does not bear on the present. If you want another sovereign country to join up with your country make it worth their while to do so, dont invade them.

    Steve

  • PD Shaw Link

    Russian imperialism included conquest and Russification of non-Slavic and non-Orthodox Europeans: Finland, Estonia, Livonia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine(*), and Moldova. Poland was eliminated in the 1790s; it certainly existed. The Russians just weren’t able to eliminate other nationalities without actually reinforcing them.

    (*) Ukraine is Slavic and Orthodox, but underwent an Orthodox Reformation modeled after the Catholic Counter-Reformation. There was also a Uniate Church in communion with the Catholic Church.

  • CuriousOnlooker Link

    Well now that Biden has spoken aloud the US goal (regime change). Russians will recall the last 2 times the government was overthrown (Russian Revolution of 1917, failed coup and dissolution of USSR in 1991); wonder if that will make them less or more antagonistic towards the West?

  • Presumably, Qaddafi is also being remembered.

  • Drew Link

    “Well now that Biden has spoken aloud the US goal (regime change).”

    Well now that Biden has proven once again that he’s a dangerous idiot and can’t even read a teleprompter.

    There, fixed it for you.

  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: How much of the territory of the present Poland actually belongs to Poland?

    Poland is ethnically quite homogeneous.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_minorities_in_Poland

    steve: Last I checked we were not ordering Ukraine to fight. They chose to fight and we are providing support.

    Compare to Afghanistan. After twenty years of U.S. efforts, the Afghan 300,000-soldier military and elected government collapsed within weeks, the president skipping the country. That’s because there never was an Afghan military or government that had ever earned the loyalty or trust of the Afghan people. (That is not to say individual Afghans didn’t fight bravely against the Taliban takeover, only that brave people alone does not make for a coherent military.)

    On the other hand, Ukraine has fought without prompting against incredible odds, the president staying in a capital that is nearly surrounded and under heavy bombardment.

    Drew: Well now that Biden has proven once again that he’s a dangerous idiot and can’t even read a teleprompter.

    Biden has shown remarkable leadership. He has rallied support from allies, armed the Ukrainians, inflicted massive damage to Russia’s economy, resisted expansion of the war (unlike, say, George W. Bush), and shown that the U.S. remains the indispensable leader of the free world.

  • Zachriel:

    Poland is ethnically quite homogeneous.

    Yes, it’s amazing what can be accomplished through ethnic cleansing

    My point here is that I think we should be very cautious about making broad statements about soil and blood in Europe. It’s none of our business, it’s contrary to our values, and too much depends on when you start your clock. Here’s another good account of ethnic cleansing in the 20th century. And it didn’t start in the 20th century or the 19th. It’s been going on since the dawn of history. We’ve done it ourselves.

    I simply think we should be wary about getting embroiled in European wars and arguments about what belongs to whom.

  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: It’s none of our business . . . I simply think we should be wary about getting embroiled in European wars and arguments about what belongs to whom.

    When the arguments result in wars of aggression, then it becomes an issue for the international community.

  • No argument on that, Zachriel. We just need to know where to draw the line which we have been doing. So, for example, I think that the Russian aggression towards Ukraine is wrong and the Ukrainians are right to defend themselves. But I think that line needs to stop short of supporting the Ukrainians in everything they do however illiberal which I presently don’t see.

  • steve Link

    “of supporting the Ukrainians in everything they do however illiberal ”

    Agree. I just dont think we should call actions illiberal which are done by every country at war. Not the right metric.

    One of our son’s cybersecurity friends is of Polish extraction, 2nd generation. Visits family there in between fighting off Russian cyberattacks. She claims there is a Poland A and a Poland B. The A team is the western part of Poland which was under German influence for so long. That part of the country is much more economically successful. The eastern part, which was under Russian influence is not so successful. Are there any countries with part/present Russian influence that we would think of as especially economically successful? I cant think of any.

    Steve

  • Are there any countries with part/present Russian influence that we would think of as especially economically successful?

    Sure. Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia.

  • steve Link

    Agree. Thought about it later. Add East Germany. Of course they all prospered after leaving the Russian sphere.

    Steve

  • Consider the Czech Republic vs. Slovakia. Both had roughly the same amount of Russian influence. They’re both members of the EU and NATO. Their populations are both western Slavs. They speak essentially the same language. The Czech Republic is prosperous; Slovakia is poor. Another example (not as dramatic): Croatia and Serbia.

    What’s the difference? It isn’t just Russian influence. It’s the social and cultural factors that accompany being Orthodox Slavs with Russian influence an additional lagniappe. This is something about which Fukuyama was right. There are different cultures in the world and they influence economic and political development.

    By and large the Lithuanian, Estonian, and Latvian populations are either Protestants or Catholics (or uniate). And, of course, they’re not Slavs, either.

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