Action Items

I don’t do this very often but I’m going to quote a lengthy chunk of Gerard Baker’s most recent Wall Street Journal column:

It is almost quaint the way some try to play by old rules. Traditional news organizations (like this one) carefully edited the video so that it faded to black before the fatal moment. It was a decent but wholly obsolescent act of restraint in an age of moral destitution and rancid self-indulgence. It was a little like watching someone trying to enforce those old movie-studio rules about no nudity while millions of viewers peer into their smartphones to access the most explicit sexual content the human imagination has ever conjured.

Then of course there are the helpfully tendentious political interpretations of Kirk’s murder, neatly unfolded for us in the universe of X and its imitators. The stomach-churning celebrations from one side by human degenerates insisting he somehow deserved it. The subtler, nuanced “commentary” that carefully clears its throat with a ritual condemnation of violence but quickly expatiates at length on Kirk’s allegedly wicked contributions to political debate.

From the other side, the eager attribution of this and other acts of political violence to a vast dark army of forces committed to the erasure of all those who oppose their ideology. The unarticulated but clearly identified “they” who are out to kill “you” or “us.”

We could have a proper debate about the extent to which there has been a dangerous escalation of rhetoric—and sporadic acts of violence—against those of us who seek to roll back the progressive tide. Or we could ascribe all murders like that of Kirk to the amorphous nearly-half-the-country conspiracy of Democrats, mainstream media, left-wing academics and transgender militants roaming the country picking off their critics.

What hurts especially hard in the wake of such a terrible event is the grifting quality to all this: the rapacious, unending hunt for clicks and likes and donations and descriptions kicks into a frenzy as a young man lies dying.

This reflects a paradox of our newly democratized digital media. The overwhelming majority of Americans are decent people, appalled by violence, eager to respond with a constructive determination to do what we can to root it out. But the discourse is led by a small minority of opportunistic ghouls (not to mention, I suspect, a significant number of foreign enemies, successfully promoting bitter division among Americans).

And we can be sure of the recycling effect of all this on the climate of political violence itself—the way this hate and gore and menace is recycled in the minds of the young men who then go out motivated to commit acts of murder.

A historian will object that alarms about the contemporary media landscape are ahistorical. The modern web is only the latest forum in which the appetite for the worst of humanity has played out. The Romans had their gladiatorial combats in packed arenas; the medieval British their public disemboweling and executions. There was no social media to blame for what went on in the minds of Lee Harvey Oswald and Sirhan Sirhan.

True. But it isn’t much of a consolation. The current public American temper is getting more and more like that of the French Revolutionary terror of the 1790s—a civilization at war with itself ever more willing to justify internal violence. If we don’t change course soon, I fear we will become a nation of latter-day tricoteuses, spellbound by the roll of the tumbrils and the swoosh of the guillotine.

Inspired by that I want to make some observations and suggest some action items.

Charlie Kirk did not deserve to die. Full stop. It doesn’t make any difference what he said, what he believed, whether it was hateful, or whether it hurt your (or somebody else’s) feelings. Words are not violence. Beliefs are not violence. Violence is violence.

The Democrats did not kill Charlie Kirk. Neither did “the left”. An individual did. They’re fuzzy right now but we’ll gain some better notion of his motives and state of mind in due course. Our political parties are not at war with each other.

Calling Republicans “Nazis” or “fascists” has been a staple among fringe elements loosely supportive of the Democrats for almost 70 years. Before Trump Nixon, Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush were all called “Nazis” or compared with Hitler by somebody at one time or another. That is a practice not becoming of public figures. That includes entertainers, media figures, and politicians. It needs to stop.

Republicans calling Democrats “communists” or Trump calling his political opponents “scum” are not equivalents to that. Here’s how we treated Nazis:

Dresden, Teilansicht des zerstörten Stadtzentrums über die Elbe nach der Neustadt. In der Bildmitte der Neumarkt und die Ruine der Frauenkirche.


and

Here’s how we treated communists:

and

We went to war against the Soviets once, a century ago, and that was a half-hearted expeditionary force. We never went to war directly against Mao’s China. The closest was in Korea and we didn’t bomb either Beijing or Moscow.

Calling someone a “Nazi” or “fascist” is an urgent call to action, including violent action. Calling someone a “communist” or “scum” is not.

Democratic leaders need to address their supporters, telling them we are not at war.

Republican leaders need to address their supporters, telling them we are not at war.

These statements need to come from the leaders to their own supporters, not generally as “we all”. It needs to be more specific than that.

28 comments… add one
  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: Calling someone a “Nazi” or “fascist” is an urgent call to action, including violent action. Calling someone a “communist” or “scum” is not.

    That is not correct. For instance, Charlie Kirk said “the left” wanted to commit a Holodomor on Americans: “The same way that Joseph Stalin went after the kulaks, they wanna go after you.” While nonsense, if the threat were taken seriously, it would justify violent resistance.

  • TastyBits Link

    Discourse has devolved, and it is likely caused by visualcy. Modern discourse is to take a sentence out of context and provide a one or two sentence rebuttal without any actual original substance.

    Crafting a fully formed argument is rarely done. Actually, the concept represented by the word “argument” is mostly unknown, but even if it were understood, it would be quickly tossed aside.

  • Zachriel Link
  • Now show pictures of the devastation wrought in Moscow and Beijing.

    If you can’t, the issue is not merely being communists.

  • While nonsense, if the threat were taken seriously, it would justify violent resistance.

    I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Is it that accusations of being a Nazi or fascist are not to be taken seriously?

  • TastyBits Link

    @Dave Schuler
    He is making the same point as I was an earlier thread. If somebody is actually concerned about the sky falling, they would do more than run around shouting, “the sky is falling.”

  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: Now show pictures of the devastation wrought in Moscow and Beijing.

    Madrid under Franco and Hanoi under Ho contradict your claim that the United States never used force against communist regimes and invariably used force against fascist regimes. In fact, the responses were very much historically contingent.

    Dave Schuler: Is it that accusations of being a Nazi or fascist are not to be taken seriously?

    The point is that if someone takes Kirk’s accusation of Stalinism seriously, they are liable to believe violence is an appropriate response. This contradicts the distinction you drew between being called a communist and a fascist.

    There is a distinction, of course. Fascism is a narrower and more specific political doctrine, entailing authoritarian ultra-nationalism (though not necessarily entailing genocide); while communism is a much wider doctrine that can include everything from Stalinism to a hippie commune. However, Kirk was specifically claiming “the left” are Stalinists, just as many on the right conflate communism with Stalinism.

    TastyBits: If somebody is actually concerned about the sky falling, they would do more than run around shouting, “the sky is falling.”

    Sounding the alarm is actually a valid first action. In addition, just because, say, Trump is a wanna-be fascist, that doesn’t mean that violent resistance is the best or just response. There are many existing institutions that can be set against a wanna-be fascist, and violence can often unleash even worse outcomes. As pointed out before, Brutus is not remembered for saving the Roman Republic, but for plunging the final fatal dagger into it.

  • Drew Link

    I spent probably far too much time the last two days looking at “studies” supporting the “all sides” argument.

    I was about to vomit at The Antidefamation Leagues piece, until perhaps 20 pages in they confessed that they cherry picked data and definitions. And admitted their study was flawed. In short, only murder was defined as violence. This reduced the sample set to a number you could put on two hands.

    Viola! Antifa, and looting and arson (recall Minneapolis, LA, Baltimore, etc?). Vast volumes of left violence like looting and arson plus waived away. So……. Both sides. Bullshit.

    White Supremacists are not everyday Republicans. Antifa are not everyday Democrats. Nut cases are neither. White Supremacists are scum, but count their transgressions on one hand. Antifa is measured in thousands. Get real.

    What we have here are not the Daves and Steve’s of the world. Good people with alternative judgments. What we have is an out of control media and academia fueling pure, unadulterated crap. Who saw the poll today about Democrats and views on acceptability of violence? You might have a similar view if you read The Atlantic, the NYT, Raw Story or watched NBC. Or went to Harvard.

    Lastly I note Zach’s pitiful opening remark. Kirk didn’t do your hypothetical. Violence, never justified, certainly isn’t warranted for “what ifs.”

    Pandora’s box is wide open.

  • BTW, I acknowledge that my argument isn’t 100% correct. I don’t believe it’s 100% wrong, either.

  • TastyBits Link

    @Zachriel
    … Charlie Kirk said “the left” wanted to commit a Holodomor on Americans … While nonsense, if the threat were taken seriously, it would justify violent resistance.

    I am not getting into an argument over semantics. I would need to spill far more ink than I have the time and inclination to satisfy you. My point stands.

    … Brutus …
    He is irrelevant to the discussion, but if you disagree, explain to the class how he is. Please, show your work. (Use multiple, multi-sentence paragraphs, and explain how any links you provide are relevant.)

  • walt moffett Link

    Which leaders have broad enough appeal/credibility within their faction to override their sides loud mouths? Can’t think of anyone, the polity is no longer a mosaic but a jumble of pieces.

  • Drew Link

    Walt

    Then they are not leaders. Leaders don’t care about being liked; but moving opinion and policy.

    Dave

    Perhaps from Tastys comment came your 100% observation. But from the King of dealing in imperfection, in real time. What is one to do? There is wild eyed speculation, then there is considered speculation. (To be revisited). That’s real world. Otherwise. Just be a spectator.

  • Zachriel Link

    Drew: Kirk didn’t do your hypothetical. Violence, never justified, certainly isn’t warranted for “what ifs.”

    Kirk didn’t say it was a hypothetical, but then and there happening, “and they won’t stop until you and your children and your children’s children are eliminated.”

    TastyBits: {Brutus} is irrelevant to the discussion

    Cassius urged Brutus to act because, as Brutus knew the sky was falling {Caesar was to become dictator perpetuo} duty compelled him to do more than run around shouting, “the sky is falling.” And yet by acting outside Republican means in order to defend the Republic, Brutus accelerated the end of the Republic.

    Men at some time are masters of their fates:
    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
    But in ourselves

  • steve Link

    I agree very much that the person responsible for the killing is the person who does the killing. There isn’t a good reason for attacking someone over their political POV. The efforts to attach blame to entire groups is just playing politics. The huge, vast number of Americans really dont believe in or practice political violence.

    Your interpretation of Nazi vs communist is unique. We have had real Nazis or Nazi adjacents march through our streets. It hasn’t resulted in a call to action that resulted in their being killed. The only time we really killed them was in WW2. I think the much more common, and correct, idea about why it is wrong to casually make the claims is that it dehumanizes the opposition and turns them into the “other”.

    That said, if someone quotes Stalin, Hitler Mao or Mussolini, in a favorable manner or in apparent imitation, or in engages in actions that those leaders practiced I think its fair to point that out.

    Also, to your list, note that both Obama and Clinton were compared to/called Hitler. Comparing people to Hitler is so common it generated its own internet rule. I think it’s most just a way to say you think someone is awful and rarely a comment on the person’s political actions/beliefs.

    Query- Besides Vietnam wasn’t North Korea communist? We killed between 12%-20% of their population. Korea really is the forgotten war. * Estimates of total German population killed, from memory so I could be wrong, are 10%-15% of the population. The Russians probably killed more than we did. So if you are talking about a US call to action it looks like we have been more likely to go out and kill communists. (About 1% of Italians died in WW2, the other major fascist country, again, much smaller than N Korea. The estimates for Vietnam swing pretty widely but the believable numbers are probably somewhere between 4%-10%.)

    Steve

    * If you like military history read up on the Korean war. Several good books on the battle at Choisin Reservoir alone. Many on the war in general. A real mix of utter stupidity and hubris along with genius and individual heroism.

    Steve

  • TastyBits Link

    @Zachriel
    I made the point that if one really believes “the Huns are about to breach the gate” nonsense one is spewing, the appropriate response is not crying, “the Huns are at the gate”. The time for sounding the alarm has long past.

    The outcome of acting in accordance to one’s belief is irrelevant to this discussion. Hence, the outcome of Brutus’ actions is irrelevant, and my point stands.

  • Zachriel Link

    TastyBits: The outcome of acting in accordance to one’s belief is irrelevant to this discussion.

    Of course it’s important. It’s often paramount.

    TastyBits: I made the point that if one really believes “the Huns are about to breach the gate” nonsense one is spewing, the appropriate response is not crying, “the Huns are at the gate”. The time for sounding the alarm has long past.

    You just keep repeating your position, which seems to be descriptive, not prescriptive; not advocating action, but noting the lack of action in some people who hyperventilate about impending dangers. Please correct this if it is wrong.

    But what would you consider to be appropriate action? While you denigrate sounding the alarm, rallying the troops can be an important action, especially in a society that is still open enough to get the message out. And certainly, precipitous acts can hasten rather than prevent the calamity. See Brutus. Perhaps a more measured response may be more effective. And sometimes the scale of the problem may seem insurmountable, so people cry out hoping for rescue. Again, you aren’t being clear.

    What exactly are you saying people should do? Why should they respond in the way you expect rather than how human nature causes them to respond? And why use multiple, multi-sentence paragraphs when fewer words will do?

  • TastyBits Link

    @Zachriel
    … Charlie Kirk said “the left” wanted to commit a Holodomor on Americans … While nonsense, if the threat were taken seriously, it would justify violent resistance.

    I am not sure if you are trying to be trifling or not.

    The difference between your point and mine is that you believe there is a threat. However, you do not believe violent resistance is your duty. Thus, you attempt to coerce my argument so that you can refute it. Not quite a strawman, but close.

    … which seems to be descriptive, not prescriptive; not advocating action, but noting the lack of action in some people who hyperventilate about impending dangers.

    Exactly. I am only noting what should be obvious, but noting the obvious would require less hyperventilating. Side-note: I have found myself hyperventilating over some issue (probably many), and I have thought, “is it really that bad”, “could I be wrong”, “if it really is that serious, is sounding the alarm the correct response”, and I usually step-back and re-evaluate.

    If I were not a free-speech absolutist, that and/or “shut the fuck-up” would be my advice.

    Unfortunately we do not live in a world where anything like a proper logical argument. Few today would listen to an argument more than 30 seconds. BTW – I have never heard Kirk debate, but I suspect he was using the Socratic Method to debate. It can quickly destroy an argument, but it must be done face-to-face, no Google or AI allowed.

    This is twofold. First, few people even know how to structure an argument, and second, nobody can agree on any premises. Tic-toc and youtube videos do not make an actual argument, and because they can be edited, they are not appropriate for establishing the veracity of a premise.

    Additionally, sniping from the sidelines without any substantive contribution is not how a proper argument is crafted.

    My advice is to get some popcorn, kick back, and enjoy the show.

  • Zachriel Link

    TastyBits: The difference between your point and mine is that you believe there is a threat.

    Yes, there is a significant threat of autocracy in the United States.

    TastyBits: However, you do not believe violent resistance is your duty.

    Because

    • violent resistance may not have the intended effect (ask the ghost of Brutus);
    • breaking the rule of law will likely further undermine the rule of law rather than protect it (again Brutus);
    • and because there are non-violent means of resistance that remain.

    When a fire in the town breaks out, someone sounds the alarm, others grab buckets, still others help the injured or displaced. Meanwhile, the town curmudgeon says, “No sense hyperventilating. The town’s never burned down before,” as he gets his popcorn. “Heh. Look at that overexcited silly little boy ringing the alarm bell.”

    TastyBits: Thus, you attempt to coerce my argument so that you can refute it.

    What argument? You post multiple, multi-sentence paragraphs but fail to clearly state your position, much less an argument.

  • nobody can agree on any premises.

    The challenge we face is in building a workable society under those circumstances.

    I’m with Maurice Chevalier: “I’m glad I’m not young any more.”

  • TastyBits Link

    @Zachriel
    My argument is that when physical actions and professed beliefs are not aligned, usually it is the beliefs that are insincere. In any case, one or the other needs to be adjusted.

    You agree that is the case with your political opponents, but for you, an exception should be allowed. I do not allow it for myself, but if you put forth a compelling argument, I will allow it. So far, you have not.

    (To our host: This is the basis of my belief that there is no “just war”, or all wars just, to somebody. St. Augustine was a Christian and Catholic. God and Jesus did not have any exceptions. I assume that “Thou shall not kill” and “turn the other cheek” have been translated accurately.)

    As to President Trump, I really have no idea what is your major concern. As an example, what do you mean by authoritarian? (I am not asking for your actual meaning. It would only lead to multiple rounds of my asking you to define another term.) For a productive argument, terms must be defined.

    Everybody talks about dialogue, but without agreeing on the definition of terms, anything can be inferred. There can be no dialogue, and it is simply a shouting match.

    Trump was president for four years, had a four year break and is almost halfway through his last term. Then, he is a former president. I am still waiting for the wall to be built, and “alligator alcatraz” is on hold for who knows how long. If I do not take the idea that there is a significant threat of autocracy seriously, it is because I am more interested in actions than rhetoric.

    If there is talk of martial law, that is the same for every two term president. My mother-in-law thought President Clinton would use Y2K crisis to declare martial law and become president for life or something. So, she bought a house in the sticks and stocked up on beans & bullets. (For years after, you would trip over 50 lb sacks of beans, and the closets were filled with ammo cans.) Her actions and rhetoric were aligned.

    When President Trump finally goes away and a democrat is elected president, the script will flip, and “the parting on the left is now a parting on the right.” I have seen this movie too many times, and I intend to enjoy myself.

    Julius Caesar was the legally appointed dictator. The Roman Republic was on the path to a civil war. Brutus may have accelerated the timeline, but it was coming. We do not know what would have happened had Brutus and company had not acted. Julius may have stepped down, and all was well. Or he could have become Caligula or Nero.

    Trump or Julius lighting a powder keg presupposes a powder keg exists, and presupposes said powder keg is stored in an unsafe manner. To my previous point, do you really believe that Trump is competent to start a revolution, and if he somehow pulled that off, is he capable of sustaining it for more than a day. Really, no really?

    I like President Trump, but he changes his mind once an hour. He is mostly incompetent, but he makes the left bat-shit crazy. What is hilarious is he is a NY democrat, circa 1980. Except for abortion, he has been saying the same things for 40-50 years.

    Big things are mostly stable, and it takes a while for them to change course. Catastrophic failures are in the design or external forces. If the US becomes whatever you fear it will, it has taken a long time to get there, and stopping or turning back is highly unlikely.

    You may already know this, but most people are historically ignorant. History begins with one’s grandfather, about 80 years. Anything older is ancient history. The US has been around for almost 250 years. It took the longer for the Roman Empire to collapse, and it was a gradual process.

    If the US is collapsing, it will not be catastrophic, and it has been building for a long time.

    (If you made it this far, I apologize for the length. It might seem somewhat disjointed because I was trying to shorten it.)

  • Drew Link

    Tasty –

    You are more than capable of holding your own. But you do realize Zach is the resident sophist, right?

  • TastyBits Link

    @Drew
    I really do not understand what he, the good Doctor, and many on the left fear. Dr. Taylor is not stupid, but he has gone bat-shit crazy over Trump. Like I said, I am still waiting for the wall to be built.

    In any case, my comments help me sort out my thoughts, and because @Zachriel or somebody else will call me out, it keeps me honest. More often I would like, seeing it written out makes me rethink my position.

    I am not trying to persuade anybody at this point.

  • Zachriel Link

    TastyBits: My argument is that when physical actions and professed beliefs are not aligned, usually it is the beliefs that are insincere.

    That’s not an argument, but a position or claim. You have failed to make an argument.

    TastyBits: You agree that is the case with your political opponents, but for you, an exception should be allowed.

    We have done no such thing. While you have avoided being specific, we have pointed out why actions may not align with what YOU decide are appropriate. We gave three examples above. Here’s another that is very relevant to how autocrats often seize authoritarian power legally:

    • Zugzwang.

    TastyBits: As to President Trump, I really have no idea what is your major concern. As an example, what do you mean by authoritarian?

    We use the standard political definition: a political system that centralizes power in an autocrat or oligarchy and suppresses pluralism. As such, it is opposed to liberalism and independent institutions. While there may be elections, they are more decorative than functional.

    TastyBits: Julius Caesar was the legally appointed dictator.

    That’s right. Caesar then used the emergency powers he was granted to consolidate power, eventually to become Dictator perpetuo.

    TastyBits: Julius may have stepped down, and all was well. Or he could have become Caligula or Nero.

    Neither of those were likely. Caesar was a genius of the first order, but a tyrant, as was Augustus.

    The reformation of the senate was one of the first steps in which Augustus laid aside the tyrant, and professed himself the father of his country. He was elected censor; and, in concert with his faithful Agrippa, he examined the list of the senators, expelled a few members, whose vices or whose obstinacy required a public example, persuaded near two hundred to prevent the shame of an expulsion by a voluntary retreat, raised the qualification of a senator to about ten thousand pounds, created a sufficient number of Patrician families, and accepted for himself the honourable title of Prince of the Senate, which had always been bestowed, by the censors, on the citizen the most eminent for his honours and services. (3) But whilst he thus restored the dignity, he destroyed the independence of the senate. The principles of a free constitution are irrevocably lost, when the legislative power is nominated by the executive. — Edward Gibbon

    TastyBits: To my previous point, do you really believe that Trump is competent to start a revolution, and if he somehow pulled that off, is he capable of sustaining it for more than a day.

    A revolution isn’t what is being implemented, but a weakening of the institutions of democratic governance. Turns out that incompetence isn’t a barrier to Trump’s destructive impulses. He may be a wanna-be fascist, but he doesn’t have the organizational abilities or even a coherent ideology to be one. He will leave nothing but wreckage.

    TastyBits: Except for abortion, he has been saying the same things for 40-50 years.

    Trump, 1999: “I am very pro-choice.”

    TastyBits: It took the longer for the Roman Empire to collapse, and it was a gradual process.

    Yes, but we’re not talking about the Roman Empire, but the Republic. It still took time to fall apart, but the end was precipitous.

    TastyBits: If the US is collapsing, it will not be catastrophic, and it has been building for a long time.

    The United States will inevitably decline relative to other countries. The decline could be abrupt or graceful. Trump’s action makes a stumble much more likely.

    However, the United States and the American Republic are not the same thing. Just the other day, Trump threatened prosecution for people, who were there legally in a restaurant, who yelled at him. Lèse-majesté, sacrebleu! He does these sorts of actions constantly, using the power of government to cow his critics, often successfully. As you pointed out, Caesar acquired power legally. He then used those powers coercively so that people would voluntarily surrender to his authority.

  • TastyBits:

    You wrote:

    I like President Trump, but he changes his mind once an hour. He is mostly incompetent, but he makes the left bat-shit crazy. What is hilarious is he is a NY democrat, circa 1980. Except for abortion, he has been saying the same things for 40-50 years.

    IMO that’s a perceptive description of Trump.

  • Drew Link

    “my comments help me sort out my thoughts, “

    I hear you.

    “But he changes his mind about once an hour”

    Although that’s hyperbole, ever consider it’s a strategy? Politics is for argumentarians, not logicians.

  • TastyBits Link

    @Drew
    Although that’s hyperbole, ever consider it’s a strategy? …

    That was my initial reaction, but it happens too often. I am open to be proven wrong, but I think mostly it is not.

    … argumentarians …

    You mean rhetoricians. Hopefully, I do not get tossed into the sophist group. As long as all parties agree on the premises, deductive logic is solid, and, symbolic logic is basically algebra.

    On the other hand, inductive logic is messy. Today, the problem is that most people think they are making a deductive argument, but it is actually an inductive one.

  • TastyBits:

    Today, the problem is that most people think they are making a deductive argument, but it is actually an inductive one.

    Sadly, I don’t think many people today understand inductive logic.

  • Zachriel Link

    Dave Schuler: Sadly, I don’t think many people today understand inductive logic.

    Or deduction, abduction, or hypothetico-deduction. People are largely persuaded by narratives. Stories. Humans are not rational creatures, but rationalizing ones.


    Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story. — Homer the Poet

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