When I read this comment:
I don’t see it that way. I don’t think it’s about race, I think it’s about his status as a member of the Ivy League elite. He doesn’t understand “typical white people†but then neither does Mitt Romney.
my immediate reaction was “Yeah. 100% of blacks in America were raised by white people in Indonesia and Hawaii.”
That’s when it struck me. This year’s presidential election will be between two candidates neither of whom has any real gut-level instincts for how ordinary Americans feel or think. Barack Obama was a mixed race child raised mostly be white people outside the cultural mainstream of the U. S. Mitt Romney is white, a child of privilege, and a Mormon. Mormons comprise about 2% of the U. S. population and most of them aren’t ultra-rich. Both candidates have Ivy League educations.
If you had gone out and deliberately tried to find two men whose life experiences were different from those of ordinary Americans, you could hardly have chosen better.
This year’s presidential election will be between two candidates neither of whom has any real gut-level instincts for how ordinary Americans feel or think.
I suppose it depends on how you define “ordinary Americans,” but when was it ever so? in my lifetime I can think of no Presidents who were ordinary Americans. Jimmy Carter tried to play the role, but in a great quip, a college roommate said, “great, Jimmy, but it’s not an ordinary job.”. Bill Clinton tried to play the role. All BS. “feel your pain, anyone?”.
I don’t want my plumber as President. And I don’t need an Ivy Leaguer as President. But the notion that there is not a middle ground that is not the “ordinary American” seems odd. The closes t thing to an ordinary American number one or two national candidate is Sarah Palin. A fine person, but not my choice for a heartbeat away.
Of course, the thought of Joe Biden a heart beat away also makes one break out in sweats…..
Well, let’s see. Just from during my lifetime Harry Truman grew up on a farm and was a haberdashery salesman, Ike grew up in a very modest home (his dad was a failed general store owner who worked as a mechanic in an ice cream plant), Johnson grew up on a farm and started off as a public high school teacher.
Nixon grew up in poverty (his dad was a failed rancher, then grocery store/filling station owner), Reagan was born in an apartment over a store (his dad was a salesman), Bill Clinton grew up in very modest circumstances in a tiny Arkansas town.
They may have been extraordinary individuals but their upringing was in very ordinary circumstances. By comparison either Obama or Romney could be from another planet.
Have we had presidents who have been from privileged backgrounds? Sure. The Bushes, Jack Kennedy, both Roosevelts just to name a few. But as my earlier list suggests the presidency has become pretty darned elite lately and I think that’s to its detriment.
Drew,
I don’t necessarily care if someone comes from an Ivy League institution, but too often our political elites have Ivy League worldviews and attitudes and simply don’t seem to understand how most people live. Maybe Bill Clinton’s “I feel your pain” was BS, but it’s clear he at least understood where the person was coming from on a level that I don’t think our current President or Romney could muster.
“But as my earlier list suggests the presidency has become pretty darned elite lately and I think that’s to its detriment.”
It started off as pretty damned elite, if memory serves. Wasn’t Andy Jackson the first “Peoples’ President”?
If you had gone out and deliberately tried to find two men whose life experiences were different from those of ordinary Americans, you could hardly have chosen better.
Bush vs Gore in 2000. Bush vs Kerry in 2004, though Kerry’s experiences were much closer to ordinary than most assume.
As for Bill Clinton, it was easy to believe that he related to lots of Americans. Whatever his faults, he pulled himself up from shitty circumstances. He and Dole (I believe) were the last mainstream candidates to make that claim.
Also, Presidents used to mix more with the citizens, in ways big and small. My father was walking down Constitution Avenue one morning. He wasn’t really watching where he was going and bumped into someone. The two kind of grumbled at each other and my father moved on. Then he stopped, turned around, and several paces behind him stood President Harry Truman – glaring at him. There is no WAY that happens these days.
The Presidency is just one long managed media event these days. So not only do we now have candidates who have no clue what ordinary Americans go through, they’ve got no chance of it ever happening.
I don’t want my plumber as President. And I don’t need an Ivy Leaguer as President. But the notion that there is not a middle ground that is not the “ordinary American†seems odd. The closes t thing to an ordinary American number one or two national candidate is Sarah Palin. A fine person, but not my choice for a heartbeat away.
It’s not about wanting someone ordinary. It’s about wanting someone who has some notion of what it is like to live the non-privileged life. Reagan got to the top of the heap (in American society at large) because he was successful in Hollywood. Nixon and Clinton worked there way up through politics, but started out low. Carter wasn’t exactly lower class, but coming from Plains (and then through the Navy) he had a much clearer view of ordinary American life than any of the likely candidates these days.
It’s not being against having someone extraordinary as President. It’s about not wanting someone completely insulated from the life most of us live. That ain’t Obama, that ain’t Romney, it sure as hell isn’t someone named Bush. Not only that, but increasingly the inner circles of these asshats are more and more insulated as well. As someone once wrote:
When I wrote my comment I knew that Truman and Ike would be invoked. But that’s. a long time ago. And let’s be honest, Ike was as the top of the heap in the military profession, and a member at Augusta National. You may tell me he came from humble roots, but really. Reagan, etc. at some level almost all of us have humble roots, but by time we are in early adulthood most of us have set ourselves on a trajectory that makes us un ordinary……..or not.
Rather than dancing on the head of this pin, I’d note that “another planet” is unnecessary hyperbole, and that just because someone grew up rich doesn’t mean they have empathy for the so called ordinary man, or that just because they grew up ordinary, doesn’t mean they have the values implicit in the comment. Does anyone think that rappers, Hollywood starlets or stars, rock stars, or professional athletes from humble beginnings really identify with ordinary people? Talk to me when they give up the jet, the limos and the Malibu home.
Similarly, does it follow that a successful or wealthy person cannot have empathy for the ordinary man? No way. Despite t he drivel of a certain commenter here who always tells us how caring he is, and nihilistic we are, I advocate public policy that doesn’t turn people into servitude to the monthly government check, which in my opinion is condescending and cruel and unusual punishment. If becoming a zoo animal is caring, count me out.
Well, certainly not Romney. Both elite and exotic. And, frankly, Obama’s roots are extremely exotic. I’m talking about gut-level reactions. Motherwit. The things you learn at your mother’s knee. That level of understanding.
Ignoring for a moment that many rappers are quite middle class, I think they understand ordinary people perfectly well. That may well be why they don’t identify with them.
I think there’s a level of understanding that can only be obtained from experience. Under some circumstances it can be replaced by noblesse oblige, cf. both Roosevelts, but IMO that’s a poor substitute, at least in a liberal democracy. It’s the difference between reading a book about flying and actually piloting an aircraft.
“The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual and moral disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fiber. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit… It is in violation of the traditions of America.â€
Drew the nihilist? Nah. FDR.
With all due respect, Dave, I think you have a prejudice and a blind spot.
I would also note, and all one has to do is listen to the “give me your vote and I’ll give you candy” speeches of politicians, that supposed understanding of ordinary people is over valued. Look at the performance of most ESOP companies.
Drew –
Have you in fact looked at the performance of most ESOP companies?
I’m genuinely curious. I’ve seen a lot of ESOP studies funded by the pro-side; the few I’ve seen from the con side show, at worst, little difference. If you can point me towards any studies that show a negative effect on performance, I’d be obliged.
Could be. I just think that in this area, as in most things, experience does count. I don’t know what it was like to be a Mormon, to grow up in Hawaii, to be the son of a multi-millionaire, or to grow up with my grandparents. Because of commonality of human experience and empathy I can guess. But it’s just a guess. If asked about any of those experiences my instincts could well be wrong.
Maxwell
I have seen none. That’s because it would be ludicrous to even attempt to chronicle all of the ESOP deals. So many are private, with undisclosed info.
This is where people on this blog, especially those who don’t care for my views, get out the arrows and fire them: “anecdotal” is the charge.
Well, when you’ve been in this world for 20 years yes, you have a lot of “anecdotal” evidence. Trouble is, it’s overwhelming. I’m not here to convince anyone about ESOP companies. Its a free country. I’d just say, before anyone invests, ask yourself if you are prepared to lose it all. Governance in ESOP companies is, shall we say, “unique.”. Yeah. Unique. That’s it.
Dave
I’m only objecting to the sweeping generalization. I’m not a particularly religious guy, but as I understand it, Mormons have to serve two years or something on missions. How many “ordinary people” do that? Further, sweeping generalizations never really apply.
I know the history of Bain. He was in his late 30s when the firms investments and reputation took off. We can say that he was privileged. Well, yes, relatively speaking, but he was approaching 40 when, through his own talent and acumen, did Bain make him the wealthy man he is.
Lastly, do we really want to cede the governance of the country to mother Teresa? It makes for a great sound bite or campaign add. But last time I looked those types were taken to the cleaners. Look at our national finances. I’m sorry the world is harsh, that it presents us with difficult trade offs and realities, but championing the ordinary man brings me back to the earlier quip: it’s not an ordinary job, nor is it conducive to ordinary thinking.
I know that some Presidents have come from ordinary beginnings, but they were hardly ordinary men.
I’m not suggesting that presidents should be ordinary men in the sense of average intelligence, accomplishments, and so on. I’m suggesting that the lack of commonality of experience between, say, the incumbent or Mitt Romney and most of the rest of the people in the country changes their views of risk and reward in ways that differ too far from what makes sense to most people and that’s deleterious to doing the job.
That was my persistent complaint about GWB: his view of risks and rewards was too different from mine.
their views of risk and reward in ways that differ too far from what makes sense to most people and that’s deleterious to doing the job.
(i dont accept the premise, but) So how are we to interpret that? And how far do we take it? Presidents must grow up on a farm? In the projects? In a little log cabin in northern Michigan? Parents must show t heir tax returns proving they’ve never made a dime over $60K?
Princeton and Yale grads need not apply? (hmmmm. Maybe I need to rethink my position).
Seriously, is there anything actionable here?
Dave, give up. To Drew commonality of experience means that the poor people are going to steal his money at the ballot box. He cannot conceive of poor people (which is everyone not as rich as himself or richer) wanting anything other than his money.
Now at no point do I see that you or anyone other than Drew stated that, but that’s all he sees. There is no more shared culture.
Alright, Reynolds, I apologize. You were right, Drew really is a characteur of a Republican.
(started this comment earlier today and see that Dave stole most of my thunder)
That’s not really the point though. Does President Obama or Mitt Romney have any idea what typical Americans are like beyond the superficial? I’d say that based on their public statements the answer is no. For most of their predecessors the answer is yes. I’d say for most of the elites who came from privilege the answer is no. Obviously there are always exceptions. As I understand it, Dave’s point is that experience matters. Here’s an illustration:
I could pontificate on what it’s like to be a wealthy venture capitalist but since I’ve never actually been rich or actually done anything related to VC it’s hard for me to relate about what that’s actually like. Even if I did research my understanding would still be pretty shallow. Similarly, I grew up in the middle class so it’s hard for me to understand what it’s like to be really poor. I’ve known poor people and been acquaintances with what some would call “trailer trash” so that helps, but I don’t fool myself into believing I can really understand their circumstances.
Mitt Romney, to use one example, has no direct experience that I’m aware of of what it’s like to be a middle class salaryman or hourly worker, much less poor. Despite the fact that he’s got researchers and pollsters and operatives telling him what he should say it’s still pretty obvious he doesn’t have a real sense of the challenges most people face. So, the problem for me isn’t the fact that he’s rich or that he’s an Ivy Leaguer – the problem is that he wants a job running a country with a lot of people he doesn’t really understand and can’t relate to.
Now, a good politician can transcend that kind of deficit and I think that ability is what really separates the good politicians from the great ones. But I don’t think Romney has that kind of political skill – political skill certainly isn’t what is getting him the nomination. But maybe I’m wrong, it’s hard to judge a man whose political values change with the wind.
I don’t know. Look at the GoP primary – not sure how to fix that. Not all problems have solutions.
Coming late to the party because I’m on book tour and currently residing at the Andaz on 5th Avenue, I ‘ll nevertheless second Schuler on this. If you’ve never devised a strategy to avoid a bill collector, never had to choose between replacing a muffler or paying your kid’s dentist, never had to eat shit at work because you had no alternative or prayed to a god you don’t believe in to keep your piece of shit car alive for another few days until payday, then you are emotionally a world away from average Americans.
The thing that defines the poor and working class, that sets them apart, is fear. You can noblesse oblige your way close to understanding fear, but if you have not felt it deep down in your churning stomach it isn’t real to you.
Some kid at a school visit the other day asked me what scared me. It’s still poverty. It will be poverty until I die. The fear of not being able to take care of my wife and my kids.
I’ll put one other thing out there: most people look at their lives and think well, that’s it, end game, I’ve gone as far as I’m going. I’m not ever getting rich, I’m not ever going to have anyone look up to me, I am not one of the chosen, this is it, and “it” ain’t that great. Neither Mr. Obama nor Mr. Romney has been there.
Now, entirely separate question, would any of that make them a better president? Like Dave I basically “hire” presidents to manage foreign policy, with domestic policy second. And I’m not sure that running scared economically is helpful on that front.
Michael, as I understand it, you were a military brat who chose poverty over living with a swishy mother. That’s not poverty , either.
I don’t know poverty. We lived in a small house, and four of my brothers slept on bunk beds in one bedroom, but we still ate well at my mother’s table, and layaway at Sears provided new shoes come time to return to school.
@Janis Gore
Learn this lesson: if you don’t want to experience poverty even for a second, don’t have joint accounts with your spouse, or leave your possessions in a situation where they can be burned en masse. Things can become ugly with amazing rapidity during a divorce.
Beyond that never give money to a hooker and ask her to buy you drugs, because you will never see her again.
I know people who live in “poverty” and are happy. They are able to get around obstacles, whether it’s via the government safety net or smoozing with people sympathetic to their plight — no muss, no fuss. I also know people with money who are anxious, up tight, far from the land of the happy and contended.
Money is not the end all be all. It is simply a vehicle to an endpoint. And, it can be utilized differently by different people. People without money glamorize it, euphemistically categorizing it as the antidote for anything that ails you. That is a fairy tale. In a way that is why this whole 99% versus 1% is so disingenuous as well, as people create their own happiness, their own reality in this life. Constantly laying the blame at the feet of others is not going to solve either their fiscal or personal problems.
Regarding Mormons…part of fulfilling the obligations of their religion is to take on a mission in a foreign country. My very first boyfriend was a Mormon. He went to Peru, integrated, helping the poor there, and ended up dying in a mishap a few months before he was to return home. I respect Mormons for their service to others…and I see Romney’s mission as an important aspect of his life — especially as he almost died in an auto accident while on his mission in France.
Of course not, Ben. that’s why I own the house outright and the cars.
And the insurance is in my name.
But, really, Jan, I can remember renting a 400 sq. ft. apartment for $175 in Highland Park, in Dallas. I was 26?, I’m 55 now. Try it.
Janis:
My dad was a PFC and an E4 when that was poverty level. I grew up in trailer parks in the south and knew better than to ask for anything at Christmas. So yeah: I was not poor, but we were the next best thing. Later he made Warrant, but I was pretty much grown by then.
“Chose poverty” would be one spin. But any good story can be told in several ways. Think of “chose poverty” as the PG version. There’s a director’s cut which is a bit more complete.
Jan:
I think that’s the Disney version of poverty, not reality.
@ Janice
Ah, but what about your hookers and drugs? I bet you hadn’t thought that far ahead.
Sorry I misspelled your name, Janis.
I see Romney’s mission as an important aspect of his life — especially as he almost died in an auto accident while on his mission in France.
I ran my bike into a car in France when I was ten. I flipped clear over the car and destroyed the bike. Does that count as an important aspect? Can I be president?
Never mind, Ben. We’re too old to do hookers and drugs. We harass each other about how to do gobi aloo.
To go forward, when an emergency room bill for a cut on the wrist costs a $1000, and a cash discount costs over $700, we have a problem.
“I see Romney’s mission as an important aspect of his life — especially as he almost died in an auto accident while on his mission in France.”
I read that the most dispiriting part of his mission to France was experiencing how little the French cared about his religion–or any other, for that matter.
Speaking of spelling Janis, I have a question for you. Why is Janis/Janice always “the other woman” in movies?
She is?
I’ve been thinking it over and can’t imagine why. I’ve never liked the name much, and don’t know why I got saddled with it.
Perhaps it’s the hiss at the end.
Obama’s mother was still from Kansas…like my mother.
I’m also a Hyphenated-American, left handed and tested high on the stupid standardized tests.
At least consider the difference between a Marvel comic fan and a guy who got his kicks impersonating police officers.
I know why President Obama stammers. It’s not that he’s trying to do Kennedy or anything….it’s called lag. The his Genius-to-Moron converter needs an update. I KNOW that face. I’ve done tech support.
Anyway, Alien vs Predator…nice one.
I was thinking the first debate would look like Tyson vs Spinks ‘1988
If Romney’s going to buzz around his own BS like a fly, why should should Obama use more a fly swatter?
Romney gets the vapors when Obama states a few facts. He’s gonna have to put his big pants on before Obama even sees a rival.
I guess he likes anime too. How keen.
With the GTOP imploding all over itself, it’s a smart time for strategics. When the smoke clears, he has to see who’s left standing and maneuver accordingly.
Besides, he’s busy these days and they just can’t stand that he can do a better job than the shrubbery from his Blackberry.
The choice is clear. We don’t need another cheerleader in the oval office. This isn’t a football game.
I don’t know why people can’t connect with Obama. Oh right, they don’t want to…it’s too difficult for low-effort thinkers.
But it’s not easy keeping up with everything unraveling like this. I’m on a time-out. Obama confiscated the VA paper shredders and like thousands of other veterans, the paperwork finally got through. But now it’s 20 years damage I have to undo. I had been waiting about 6 years before he took office. The GTOP types were cheering us on and letting us die in the streets before risking their Prada-of-the-month subscriptions. Obama came through. I had hit denials for forms I had sent in, and some forms they never sent. Even better, my daughter will be covered because of ACA. A mother couldn’t be more pleased.
Well, I’m NOT gonna just sit here “recovering”. I’m also an outsourced geek. ..overqualified since about ’04.
While the kids are in the streets with the able-bodied, a million pissed-off geeks aren’t sitting around doing nothing.
So, here’s a musical tribute to the financial accomplishments of Mitt Romney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1fPQ3AuQ1kY
Get those Taxes, President Obama….cuz the geek-o-sphere needs more COWBELL. (bandwidth)