Would a Carbon Tax Actually Reduce Carbon Production?

Ever since I lived in Germany more than thirty years ago I’ve been in favor of a carbon tax of one form or another. Originally, my reasons were largely geopolitical. More recently environmental concerns have been added to those geopolitical ones.

In the last few weeks I’ve begun to wonder whether a carbon tax would actually reduce carbon production in the United States to any appreciable degree. The central reason is differential production of carbon among earners of differing income levels.

A place to start thinking about this is with this study (PDF). It’s not a study, really, more a collection of anecdotes but they’re interesting and suggestive anecdotes. The findings of the study are that

  1. The overhead costs of living in the United States put reducing carbon production below a fixed level that’s above most of the rest of the world beyond the control of individual behavior. This actually may be more of a premise than a finding. But it means that even if you live in a cardboard box and don’t work your carbon footprint will be higher than the average Indian’s.
  2. For most Americans there’s not a huge amount separating this overhead level and their actual carbon footprint.
  3. This begins to change at about the top income decile and carbon footprint and the carbon footprints of the top .1% of income earners is orders of magnitude higher than that of those at lower income levels.

The short version of this is that people in the upper income decile have a carbon footprint something like an order of magnitude higher than the average, Bill Gates has a carbon footprint 10,000 times the average, and the carbon footprints of those in the upper income decile including Bill Gates are included in the average. Clearly, if they were excluded from the average the average for the lowest nine deciles would fall. How far it would fall is, as my mathematics textbooks used to say, an exercise left for the interested student.

The anecdotal results are supported by a somewhat more systematic study done in British Columbia. In the study the authors pitch the idea of individual offsets as a means of reducing income inequality. Frankly, I’m leery. I think you can grind only so many axes at a time and, if the objective is to reduce carbon emissions, shouldn’t we be doing that rather than implementing a policy that will reduce carbon emissions only at the margins but is bound to require a large civil bureaucracy and will be subject to political finagling since it picks winners and losers?

Going back to the cardboard box and Buddhist monks living in the woods doing nothing but pray and eat bark. I think that individual carbon production can be divided into three categories: overhead (the level of the guy living in the cardboard box), mandatory (the level of people with homes and going to jobs), and discretionary (everything else). Offhand I’d guess that a lot of carbon production for most people is the result of commuting to work. Over time a carbon tax high enough might have the effect of causing people to move closer to their work but I strongly suspect that for many that isn’t really an option.

A guy who commutes from the West Side of Chicago to Schaumburg every day doesn’t do it for the fun of it. There aren’t enough jobs on the West Side of Chicago and there isn’t enough low cost housing in Schaumburg. If you have a high enough carbon tax, something’s got to give. Either there need to be more jobs on the West Side of Chicago, there’s got to be more low cost housing in Schaumburg, or working stops making economic sense.

I don’t know what it’s like where you live but here at the far north end of Chicago and in the adjoining suburbs we’ve been eliminating the last few remaining pockets of low cost housing like mad over the period of the last ten years. The motels and SROs that used to exist are gone. What’s left is a lot more expensive.

There are any number of barriers to businesses relocating into the city of Chicago, city regulations and the pain of dealing with city government not the least of them. However, I suspect that a lot of managers want to live closer to where they live, too, and they don’t particularly want to live on the West Side of Chicago.

Thinking along those lines I’m beginning to think that a carbon tax might be more likely to make work less worthwhile than it is to reduce carbon emissions for one, simple reason: for those producing the highest amount of emissions no imagineable tax is high enough to cause them to change their behavior enough to reduce their emissions and those whose behavior will be affected by the tax don’t have enough discretionary emissions to make a big difference.

All of this reaffirms the direction I’ve been heading on this for some time: to the extent that reducing the amount of carbon in the atmosphere is a problem, geoengineering is probably going to be the only game in town.

81 comments… add one
  • john personna Link

    The trend to higher energy prices have been a proxy for a carbon tax.

    Each time those prices rise, people move to efficiency. Look at fleet MPG numbers in the US, for example. They’ve actually led fleet requirements, moving more with price.

    And of course insulation or efficient appliances become more popular over time.

    I think that studies which find the opposite are data mining in the bad way. They are looking for what they want to see.

    Now, the reasonable question is how much we should or can hasten higher energy prices with a carbon tax, and how that will affect the future economy.

    I think a schedule of higher prices would put us in good stead, just because “carbon” isn’t the whole equation. The world will get to $5/gal gasoline, and if it does by “shock” it will be that much harder on us all.

  • john personna Link

    Oh, you know I’m sure to look at “energy intensity” of various nations. Germany is much lower than us because, not being an oil producer, they’ve been concerned longer.

    The German Passiv Haus standard is pretty neat.

  • Drew Link

    “for those producing the highest amount of emissions no imagineable tax is high enough to cause them to change their behavior enough to reduce their emissions and those whose behavior will be affected by the tax don’t have enough discretionary emissions to make a big difference.”

    With some modification, this is and has been my position for many years. That modification being that I don’t think a strict income or wealth variable is really the driver. For example, I simply do not believe that a $60K per year family is going to forego the obligatory Friday night trip with the kids to the ice cream store in July. They might grouse about the cost of gas, but they’re goin’ for that scoop of chocolate or cookies and cream. Its a lifestyle issue. In addition, I was in River Forest visiting a friend recently. Saturday afternoon and horrific traffic, almost exclusively 1 person per vehicle. A 50 cent per gallon gas tax is going to cure that? No way. Lastly, and maybe this is too unique, but I drive a 911 and a Mercedes S550. Hardley gas sippers. But I have the luxury of working at home. I’ll put my auto carbon footprint up against the majority of people.

    So it gets a lot more complex. But I think the thrust of your point is absolutely correct – a behavior changing tax would be impossibly high to implement.

    If, like me, you think that man made global warming is the biggest bunch of hooey to come along in decades, this does not bother you, and you lament the restriction of Alaskan or Gulf exploration. If you do believe in MM global warming, then you really need to think about nuclear energy, or geoengineering.

    But big gas taxes, or rationing schemes? More government ridiculousness.

  • PD Shaw Link

    I suppose if you confine the issue to the goal of reducing carbon it becomes a bit overwhelming. If you look more at geopolitical issues, finding the best way to raise revenue to balance the budget, or encourage investment in energy technologies, the prospect of using pigovian taxes to provide a nudge isn’t bad. It’s better than the alternatives that are likely coming. (I notice the Taylorville Tenaska fiascle passed the Illinois House today)

  • john personna Link

    When I drove a Porsche my daily insurance bill was higher than my daily gas bill. I’m not sure if that’s true today, or if there has been a cross-over.

  • PD Shaw Link

    I do think the socio-economic implications are important. IIRC Jevon’s book, the Coal Question, from which Jevon’s Paradox originates, spends a lot of time disputing the use of pigovian-style taxes as an answer to growing coal scarcity. I believe though this is because the only taxes Jevon can conceive in his day and age (1865) are tariffs on trade and he spends a lot of time explaining how the British economy is premised on trade and derivative services and such tariffs would be devastating to the economy. He considers the idea of taxing the coal people use to warm their homes, considers it a good solution, but politically impossible (in a far less democratic time and place).

  • john personna Link

    A good graph here on US and Chinese energy intensity:

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2010/11/17/china%E2%80%99s-economy-predicted-to-overtake-the-u-s-economy-within-two-years/

    And in figure 14 below, of the US versus others:

    http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentPage____10138.aspx

    There certainly has been a natural trend toward efficiency.

  • john personna Link

    (a comment with a couple links is stuck in moderation)

  • PD Shaw Link

    jp, that graph just suggests to me that China, as an undeveloped country, has a lot of low lying fruit due to the lack of an existing energy infrastructure.

    One of the reports on that site, “The Problem with Spain’s Green Job Model,” illustrates the problem with the current approach:

    “The study calculates that the programs creating those jobs also resulted in the destruction of nearly 110,500 jobs elsewhere in the economy, or 2.2 jobs destroyed for every “green job” created.”

    http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2010/11/23/the-problem-with-spains-green-jobs-model/

    Today, the Illinois House is requiring every Illinoisan to buy energy from two coal gasification plants for the next 30 years, energy that they have to buy because there is no demand for it. The one in Taylorville will create hundreds of jobs (including temporary construction) and cost thousands of jobs due to high energy costs. The government doesn’t want to do the boring stuff that probably needs to happen. They want to stand in front of open landscapes with a shovel.

  • Drew Link

    JP –

    I’m not sure exactly what point you are trying to make. Energy to GDP will naturally fall as an economy gravitates towards more service intensivity. The US shows that trend.

    That is not to deny that energy efficiency will naturally increase over time. Any more than efficiencies of any sort will occur over time.

    I just don’t think it follows that other nations have “got it” and encouraged those efficiencies through policy or unique enlightenment.

    I think Dave has hit the nail on the head. US lifestyle expectations will render energy taxes of a magnitude sufficient to alter behavior politically, and practically, impossible. I recently read that Prius sales are fading. The buying population of those who believe they are saving the earth through such purchases is becoming saturated.

  • john personna Link

    Well, I see the Germans doing things like Passiv Haus, and I see their energy intensity falling. It seems odd to say “oh no, it’s not the houses” without some kind of supporting data.

    This is common though. Some social or economic process will have inputs X, Y, and Z, and someone will argue without data “it’s all Z.” Human nature.

    (I don’t think it is all Passiv Haus or similar programs, but I think that those help, just as our own Energy Star programs do, at the margin.)

  • john personna Link

    On the Prius, don’t forget the hit they took with the “unintended acceleration”, and that parallel to the general decline in car sales.

    That, and people rightly or wrongly now expect gasoline price stability at $3/gal.

  • Drew Link

    “On the Prius, don’t forget the hit they took with the “unintended acceleration”, and that parallel to the general decline in car sales.

    That, and people rightly or wrongly now expect gasoline price stability at $3/gal.”

    The article I read was in conjunction with the increase in overall car sales volume. Ooops.

    If I recall correctly, you drive an Audi A6. If gas went to $4/gallon would you run out and buy a Prius? (I wouldn’t.)

  • john personna Link

    Increase since when?

    http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/10/except-for-cfc-auto-sales-reach-2-year.html

    The Prius volume cratered in 2007, in line with everyone else:

    http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/10/worldwide-prius-hybrid-sales-2-million-toyota.php

    I’m not sure there are any definite trends to be found in the post-crash rebound, combined with the acceleration thing, combined with $3 gas.

    And no, I’m the guy now with a Prius and a mountain bike. I consider adding a 4×4 for where the Prius can’t go, but I think I’d keep the Prius. I like having low gasoline price exposure.

  • john personna Link

    (moderation again)

  • Drew Link

    jp –

    I’ll have to dig for the article. This is within the last couple weeks.

    Second, I have a memory like a steel trap. You never claimed to own an A6? Me: suspicious. We aren’t going to have to re-live “I’m not odograph,” are we?

  • john personna Link

    My evil twin has a picture of the prius up, iirc

    Of course he is not me

  • michael reynolds Link

    That’s me in the A6, actually, having given up my S-Class for the environment. Or possibly because I was moving to Italy where the roads are too tight. But partly for the environment. Honestly. At least that’s why I passed on the V-8 for the Audi. Plus when I drive up to Hollywood, S-Class is for producers and I’m a writer and needed a car that matched my status. Plus, what if I run into Ed Begley?

    The point being that with cars there are always many factors at work. It’ll never be just about price or just about mileage.

    That said, high energy prices in Italy — largely in taxes, some as a consequence of Italian lack of planning — have a huge impact. You can barely find a large gas-burning car, almost everything is diesel. People turn off their engines while coasting downhill or sitting at a light. Use of small motorcycles is far more prevalent. Houses don’t have dryers — people hang their clothing outdoors. Houses don’t have air conditioning — people sweat.

    So clearly the price of energy has a big impact on use. And it has a multiplier effect in that saving becomes chic and wasting seems gauche.

  • sam Link

    ” but I drive a 911″

    Hard to get really mad at a guy with such good taste. (Wouldn’t keep me from cracking his gas tax up, though — even if that weren’t effective re the carbonipollution of the entire biosphere. I made that word up.)

  • Drew Link

    jp –

    At least you didn’t bring up sybils. 😉

    mr – perhaps age is catching up with me. Its a bitch.
    “The point being that………….as a multiplier effect in that saving becomes chic and wasting seems gauche.”

    But that’s like saying eating tapas in Spain at 11pm is the only way to go, etc. Cultures differ. I maintain: in the US the independence of “the car” is ingrained, and will not be overturned in our lifetime. No bizarre tax scheme withstanding.

    To be clear, you are talking to a guy who lived in downtown Chicago until age 40. Never owned a car. Buses, taxis, the El. I get it. (Dave will understand the references: Gold Coast, Lincoln Park, North Loop, and even Boys Town, or Lakeview, if you will.) So I understand the public transport/city model. I’m just telling you all that the suburban/rural model will not be overturned. It just won’t. Stop dreaming.

  • Drew Link

    “Hard to get really mad at a guy with such good taste. (Wouldn’t keep me from cracking his gas tax up, though — even if that weren’t effective re the carbonipollution of the entire biosphere.”

    Fork you, and the (farting) horse you rode in on.

    But seriously folks……..

    sam – we recently sold a company we owned located near Austin, TX. As a closing event we went to a driving school in Austin. Unbelieveable event. We drove Crown Victoria Interceptors, because they train cops there. Professional drivers showed us how to drive the course for a few laps……………..and then drove a lap like a pro driver would. After we all changed our underwear…….

    It truley was an experience. We got to drive with the pro in the passenger seat screaming “gas” or “brakes” etc. Eventually you realize that the safest lap you took all day was when this “maniac” pro driver drove you around and you were certain you were going to die…….because in fact he was in complete control. My driver/coach actually currently drives for Penske. Think about it.

    In any event, back to the 911, mine is an “S,” so its got a bit more juice. I’ve been motivated to go back down and run it on the track. In the CV’s they kept telling us “a squealing tire is a happy tire.” That is, we went around TV style. I asked him about a 911. He said “well, we won’t squeal it so much, because a 911 will corner so much tighter, (they tell you: “miss the cone by 5 inches” – try it sometime people, try it) but I WILL want you to have your helmet on tighter, because we will throw you to the side door more.”

    Super………….

  • john personna Link

    I test drove a little Caterham Seven and had a similar experience. After my drive, the race car driver salesman drove me back. If I hadn’t seen racing photos on the walls of his office I might have freaked, though the whole thing was sensory overload.

    Getting back to Dave’s question though, it is clear that in aggregate consumers do respond to price. Nations with higher energy prices have lower energy intensity. Nations that experience higher, or lower, energy prices respond. So a Pigouvian energy tax could obviously move aggregate consumption.

    Or course, it would be unpleasant, and global warming is a fuzzy threat somewhere in the future. And what do people do given an indefinite future risk versus short term reward? They choose short term reward every time. Or they switch from a v8 to an A6 and call it good.

    Global Warming is real, and we’ll get it because that’s who we are.

  • sam Link

    Hey, Drew, you get to have all the fun, but gotta rain on your parade a wee bit. You recall over at OTB when I opined that the Fed’s QEII plan struck me as Friedmanesque. As I recall, you said, “No, no, no” or words to that effect. Well, yes, yes, yes … See, Milton Friedman Supports Ben Bernanke on Quantitative Easing for the smoking hot smoking gun. Sorry, dude. Oh, and climate change is real and it’s your fault.

  • Drew Link

    “Getting back to Dave’s question though, it is clear that in aggregate consumers do respond to price. Nations with higher energy prices have lower energy intensity.”

    I want to be clear. I agree, here. I’m simply pointing out that the elasticity in the US is very low, due to cultural differences. In fact, as Dave observes, the elasticity is so low that only a gargantuan increase in cost will materially affect consumption. Ain’t gonna happen.

    So, at the risk of repeating myself, unless you just want to tilt at windmills (cute, eh?) you need to think about nukies etc. You gotta go there.

  • Drew Link

    slammin’ sammy –

    “Hey, Drew, you get to have all the fun, but gotta rain on your parade a wee bit. You recall over at OTB when I opined that the Fed’s QEII plan struck me as Friedmanesque. As I recall, you said, “No, no, no” or words to that effect. Well, yes, yes, yes … See, Milton Friedman Supports Ben Bernanke on Quantitative Easing for the smoking hot smoking gun.”

    Uh, er, well., um…..sam………Milton is, uh, dead. I don’t believe he has weighed in on Benny’s plan. You may have proprietary supernatural correspodence I am not aware of, but otherwise……take another toke, dude.

    “Oh, and climate change is real and it’s your fault.”

    Of course it is. And my dick is 12 inches long……….

  • steve Link

    “But that’s like saying eating tapas in Spain at 11pm is the only way to go, etc. Cultures differ. I maintain: in the US the independence of “the car” is ingrained, and will not be overturned in our lifetime. No bizarre tax scheme withstanding.”

    There was a time when most people did not live in suburbs. That changed. I see no reason to think that could not change again. I expect that the cost of transportation will gradually force denser housing and we will have more cities with fewer suburbs. Not sure about rural living percentages. Or, we could get cold fusion.

    Steve

  • john personna Link

    I wouldn’t look at data mined elasticities because there is a parallel track all about social goals and expectations. Imagine a society that supported a $1/gal gas tax. That society would be ready to buy small cars. They go together.

    If we’ve got a society that isn’t ready for a ten cent increase in federal fuel tax, then they aren’t ready for the small cars either.

    IOW, we could if we wanted, but we don’t want.

  • sam Link

    Drew, buddy, go read the link provided….

    Anyhoo, back to the issue at hand. I agree with Dave and Drew, a carbon tax, at least as regards cars, wouldn’t do the work. For better or worse, Cars R Us. The battle was won (or lost, depending on your view) in Los Angeles. A lot folks don’t know this, but LA had the most advanced public transportation system in the US (maybe the world) at one time. I’m old enough to have used it. See, Pacific Electric Railway. The thing was a marvel. See especially the map of the extent of the service. And now when I read that LA is attempting to establish a wide-area public transportation system, I just ruefully shake my head. They had it, they killed it. The car triumphed, and as LA went, so went the rest of the country. That bell cannot be unrung.

  • john personna Link

    The thing that frustrates me Sam, is that is illogical to blame the mechanism (gas tax) for the lack of commitment (large gas tax).

    Of course a gas tax could work. Set it at $2 and watch it work real good. The people, believing in GW and the $2 tax, would go down to buy 50mpg cars, and be happy.

    Of course, when we are actually talking about “gas tax holidays” in response to the normal increase of energy prices, we are no where near that.

  • So clearly the price of energy has a big impact on use. And it has a multiplier effect in that saving becomes chic and wasting seems gauche.

    Maybe there in Italy….but here….ladies and gentlemen I give you:

    Al Gore

    Granted Gore can afford this and he has claimed the usage is countered by offsets. However, this misses the point that he could reduce his consumption by 50% by moving to a more modest house and continuing to offset the full 17,000 KWH. But he doesn’t. Gore wants everyone else to cut back while he continues to live a fat and rich life. Not that I blame him who wouldn’t. But when you are also the Champion of Global Warming it does make you a sanctimonious prick.

  • See, Milton Friedman Supports Ben Bernanke on Quantitative Easing for the smoking hot smoking gun. Sorry, dude. Oh, and climate change is real and it’s your fault.

    That link to Brad DeLong…bahahahahahaha….oh man.

    That is so funny considering that DeLong was first in the “We’ll have a robust recovery” group. Whoops. Then he was in the “We need government stimulus” group. Whoops. Now he’s all for a second round of quantitative easing. And all that without blinking an eye. Truly amusing…very funny.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Taxes sure are funny things. If you believe conservatives no amount of carbon tax would have any effect on drivers. Nothing can get Americans to change their ingrained driving habits!

    But it seems raising income taxes a couple of points will cause Americans to throw in the towel and quit working. Just throw up their hands, shutter their businesses, and move to a monastery.

    Taxes. Is there any pre-existing, politically-motivated end they can’t serve?

  • sam Link

    “That link to Brad DeLong…bahahahahahaha….oh man.”

    You want to educate me as to how the quoted interview from Friedman does not support the thesis? Bahahahahahaha does not an argument make.

  • sam Link

    Oh, and actually, DeLong was quoting David Beckworth, a conservative economist who runs the Macro and Other Market Musings blog. Beckworth published an article on National Review Online, The Conservative Case for QE2 that some might find interesting.

  • sam,

    It is funny because DeLong is all over the place. He supports QE2 and stimulus spending….its a rather eclectic view for a macro-economist (to put it mildly). In indicates either severe internal inconsistencies on how DeLong views the macro-economy or he has a very unusual model/view that is not shared by many.

    I’m making no statement about the efficacy of QE2. But….I don’t think it is going to cause issues with inflation right now, but the exit strategy might be problematic. Exiting from QE2 will be contractionary and thus there maybe political pressure not to do it leading to possible excessive inflation.

  • john personna Link

    Steve, are you forgetting that Bernanke is for QE2 and stimulus!

  • sam Link

    What I opined over at OTB when I first read about QE2, was that it struck me as Friedmanian (the “thesis”), because it looked to my, untutored eye, as monetarism. I was told no, it was not Friedmanian at all. I wasn’t taking any position on Delong — his blog just happened to be where I found the interview with Friedman, and the argument by Beckworth that QE2 is something Milton would have supported in principle (but criticized a bit for not being rule-based). It was really only, on my part, an opinion about what kind of policy QE2 is.

  • Drew Link

    “Taxes sure are funny things. If you believe conservatives no amount of carbon tax would have any effect on drivers. Nothing can get Americans to change their ingrained driving habits!

    But it seems raising income taxes a couple of points will cause Americans to throw in the towel and quit working. Just throw up their hands, shutter their businesses, and move to a monastery.”

    You are a great set up man, Michael. And I want to thank you. I was waiting for this inevitable response. First, just look at the raw numbers. Suppose you drive 25,000 miles per year. Suppose you get 18 mpg. That’s 1,319 gallons. Put a $1 gallon tax on it: its $1,320 bucks a year. Now consider a 4% increase on, oh, $250K in marginal income. That’s $10,000, or an 8x factor. Probably more important is the elasticity issue I pointed out.

    People love their cars. Millionaires and working stiffs. They love the freedom, they love those trips to the mall, or the ice cream store I noted. You will simply not change this behavior.

    But let’s look at the small busines owner – who is already rich – and his decision about whether or not to put a new warehouse in PA to serve the northeast market. Warehouse: $250K. Two sales people: $400K. Dock manager, two forklift drivers etc etc. You get the point. Total risk investment: $1MM. But if the warehouse turns a $150K profit, the 4% incremental tax is $6K. But what, really, does ObamaCare mean for employment costs? And we know there is a 3.8% investment cost. And in the current rhetoric of Obama, what are future tax rates and on it goes?

    You have said, Michael, you’ll just write 6 more pages a day. Fine.
    But in the calculus of widget manufacturing guys, they are saying “no way; I don’t trust these guys in any way shape or form.”
    This is what business owners tell me. This is what we think about in our own portfolio. But you don’t have to beleive a word I’ve said, Michael. You just have to inspect what is going on out there. Unemplyment level. Investment – maintenance. GDP – side ways and inadequate.

    Keep clutching to your 6 pages argument, and the notion that the tax elasticities are the same. But the real world is calling bullshit on your position.

  • john personna Link

    The average for a new car is 16K miles per year, but it falls off to 12K for the fleet average. Or you can look at “family” totals. For the typical family it’s 21K per year. A family with teens 29K miles per year.

    But then you’ve to to look at the real total, not the gas total.

    Assume 21K and 18 in-city MPG (a little high, no SUVs or minivans in that household) then their current pre-tax gasoline costs are $3500. With the tax they move up to $4666.

    I think that’s getting in the territory where you notice. Most families have other uses for “extra thousands.”

  • john personna Link

    Oh, assuming the family goes whole hog and all Prius, the 21K driving cost falls to $1 750, even at $4/gal. They are basically at half where they started. It’s easy.

    Or it would be easy if we cared.

  • Ignoring the fallacy of CO2 (.039% of the atmosphere) as being a verifiable contributor to the temperature of the atmosphere, a carbon tax is not a good idea for America.

    Energy use is directly connected to economic activity. The less energy a nation uses the less economic activity it has. If the US chooses to limit its own energy use and its large carbon energy reserves, in order to “do the right thing” other nations will be only too happy to take up the economic slack and export more..

    If he US were to impose a carbon tax it would be regressive, in that the lower economic classes would feel it disproportionately more than the upper economic classes, both in terms of their own quality of life for transportation, heating, cooling, food costs, etc. (Most fertilizer comes from natural gas – higher NG prices, higher food prices.), and jobs. They would be hit by job loss as even higher American production coats would push even more manufacturing offshore. The higher economic classes would just move their money offshore also, further reducing jobs.

    If there was any verifiable, repeatable proof whatsoever that CO2 had any effect on global temperatures a negotiated carbon reduction plan between all nations could be developed and obviate the need for a few nations to carry the cost along. Since that proof does not exist for the US to assume economic penalties for an imagined problem is irrational at best.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Yes, Drew, it’s easy if you dictate the assumptions: a $1 tax on gas, and as John points out, you assume we’re only talking about a single individual.

    And if you assume that my ability to respond to higher taxes by increasing productivity is an anomaly un-shared by anyone else.

    And then toss in a few more assumptions based on your own “personal” observations.

    Of course if it’s a $2 tax, and we calculate based on all the drivers in the family, and we suspect that not everyone shares that particular paranoid world view, or buys the untested prejudices of a self-selected sample of business owners, or is unable to adjust by increasing productivity, then yes, everything is as you say.

    It’s easy when you get to cherry-pick the “facts.”

  • Drew Link

    jp and mr –

    Well, if you want to get more comprehensive……at the risk of “cherry picking.”

    WTFU – people don’t just make decisions based upon gas consumption. There is safety, and there is the practicality of use of their car/vehicle, among others. I once found myself in a pitched battle with a guy (name escapes me now) who is the godfather of the electric car. You can look him up on the net. He was chiding me about the speed of my 911 vs an electric speedster. When I pointed out that his speedster was fast because it was light………..and a death trap, he shut up. And so it goes.

    A Prius can’t support the after school activities car pooling demands, and people want safer alternatives. YOU, or jp, may hold values that say we should all buy Prius’s, but people just don’t want to do that. Further, they don’t want people of your ilk demanding $3-$4/gallon taxes or whatever you deem necessary to change their habits. Ain’t gonna happen. Go back to your bong, or liquor locker and enjoy. But it ain’t gonna happen. Back to the real world…..

    Instead of just hurling guffaws, perhaps you could enlighten us on how the general populace is going to increase their productivity. A reasonable degree of specificity, and breadth of application in your explanation would be appreciated. In particular, given that small business owners are generally attributed 2/3ds of all new job creation, can you in any way counter my “personal” experience??

    And as I said, you can discount every word I say. But if you actually go outside your house and experience the real world you will see a 9+ unemployment rate as far as the eye can see, despite Obama’s optimistic prognostications. You will see small business owners frozen into inaction. And, in case you missed it, there was a recent election cycle in which millions of people recognized same and voted to throw the current approach out.

    Or are you in the crowd that thinks these “common folk” are just dummies?

  • Icepick Link

    And if you assume that my ability to respond to higher taxes by increasing productivity is an anomaly un-shared by anyone else.

    Right now there’s about 10% of us who can’t get any work and all, another 7% or 8% who can’t get full-time work that they want, and wages are DOWN for a large swath of the rest of the working population. Back when I was working I couldn’t just increase my pay at will be working harder. My bosses would have thanked me for my work and done nothing to reward it. (And spare me the crap about get new bosses. They’re all pretty much the same. If you’re not the lead dog ….)

    And as Drew says, it’s not as if the widget maker can also just increase his profit either. He’s got to find buyers and then he’s got to produce the widgets. It isn’t as easy as just writing six more pages a day.

    Just because you live in some magical world where you can dictate how much you make doesn’t mean any of the rest of us do. In fact damned few of us do, or we’d all be as rich as Crassus. Or have you forgotten what reality is like?

  • john personna Link

    Remeber Drew, I’m observing and accepting that we don’t all have “the values to choose a Prius.” Some do, but it’s not more than a few percent.

    I accept that we will have GW, essentially because of that.

    But for the record, the Prius is a “midsize” by EPA classification. It gets 4 of 5 safety stars. Given that at least half the population already drive midsize or smaller, and 4 stars or less, it would actually fit quite a few.

    And if it was important, many others could adjust.

    (I’m confused by the “increase their productivity” bit when so many can so obviously increase their efficiency, reduce their costs, while doing the same trips. Or heck, do 40% MORE travel while still coming in under their previous consumption.)

  • john personna Link

    (Maybe you wish there were some practical impediment, but there is not, really. See Germany. See Germany run. See Germany drive small cars.)

  • Icepick Link

    I don’t get the idea of buying a Prius to save money on gas. You can get a comparable car that burns gas and gets 30+ mpg for thousands less. After 50,000 miles at $3 a gallon you would save about $2300. At $4 a gallon the savings top $3000 after 50,000 miles. And that’s assuming one gets the 55 mpg on the Prius, and not everyone does anywhere near that well. (Many also exceed that.) With the kind of driving I do (and did when working) I would have maybe gotten 45 mpg on a Prius, and I got over 32 mpg in my Civic. Buy a used Civic, or a Kia or Hyundai and the price difference gets larger.

    Hell, add that $2 a gallon tax and make it $5 a gallon for gas and the savings at 50,000 miles is still under $3800. It doesn’t make any sense financially, it’s just a status symbol. South Park got it right.

  • Icepick Link

    Taxes sure are funny things. If you believe conservatives no amount of carbon tax would have any effect on drivers. Nothing can get Americans to change their ingrained driving habits!

    But it seems raising income taxes a couple of points will cause Americans to throw in the towel and quit working. Just throw up their hands, shutter their businesses, and move to a monastery.

    Taxes. Is there any pre-existing, politically-motivated end they can’t serve?

    You know that works both ways. You can’t say that an essentially marginal increase in energy costs (See Drew’s actual calculations, or mine, above. Math is a bitch.) is going to change everyone’s behavior but that an increase in income taxes will just cause people to “work” that much harder as you have on other occassions. You’ve skewered yourself this time.

  • Icepick Link

    jp wrote: But then you’ve to to look at the real total, not the gas total.

    Assume 21K and 18 in-city MPG (a little high, no SUVs or minivans in that household) then their current pre-tax gasoline costs are $3500. With the tax they move up to $4666.

    I think that’s getting in the territory where you notice. Most families have other uses for “extra thousands.”

    You know, if they were that concerned about an extra $1700 a year they could have gotten a Camry or something else for a lot less that also has much better mpg standards. As before, you can’t say people are going to change there behavior over a few thousand dollars when they already have the option to change their behavior for a few thousand but haven’t done so.

    And as a practical matter a $2 per gallon additional tax just won’t work. Within two years most of the jokers that voted for that tax would be removed from office, and you can be damned sure the new guys will repeal the tax.

  • Icepick Link

    jp wrote:I don’t think it is all Passiv Haus or similar programs, but I think that those help, just as our own Energy Star programs do, at the margin.

    Energy Star isn’t all it’s been cracked up to be. At the margins indeed.

    Drew wrote: And my dick is 12 inches long……….

    Then shouldn’t you be in pron? Or at least commercial banking?

  • michael reynolds Link

    You know that works both ways. You can’t say that an essentially marginal increase in energy costs (See Drew’s actual calculations, or mine, above. Math is a bitch.) is going to change everyone’s behavior but that an increase in income taxes will just cause people to “work” that much harder as you have on other occassions. You’ve skewered yourself this time.

    The problem there is that as you say: it works both ways. Either taxes do affect behavior or they don’t. Which is it? Is there a particular magic dollar amount? What is it? Or is it a particular percentage that suddenly empowers the mystical taxation effect? What is that percentage?

    I don’t say that taxes cause people to work harder. I say they cause me to work harder. And I suggest that it’s certainly a possible way people might react, since I rather doubt I’m unique.

    I don’t have quite the mechanistic world view that numbers people so often do. I tend to think people have complex motives, that they are not calculators, but are creatures of a matrix made of DNA, environment, free will and random chance. So I think it’s absurdly simplistic to explain human behavior either in the micro or the macro as the sum of money in, money out.

    Economists will never be able to predict the future because they simply don’t get that human beings never have been, never will be, driven by simple math. The human race as a whole does not suffer from the same Aspergerish myopia that afflicts economists. Which may explain why none of you can produce a graph that shows a clear causal connection between tax rates and anything other than tax rates. Or can predict the stock market a month from now. Or . . . anything.

  • john personna Link

    A lot of ideas from Icepick, but to hit a few:

    “Camry is cheaper,” not really. Look at Edmund’s 5 year cost to own calculator. 2011 Camry: $39,490, 2011 Prius: $36,009. The lower initial price for the Camry is indeed made up in fuel savings.

    And that’s based on gas prices staying the same, of course. “Cost estimates are based on the current one-year moving average of self-service prices in your state ….”

    You can say “South Park” but I see it as people using weak data to defend their emotional position, more than vis-versa.

    “Energy Star is not as great as it could be,” agreed. But it does help, and we have all been moving to more efficient appliances. State programs with trade-in benefits help as well.

  • john personna Link

    (It could be that way too few of the people down in the incomes where it matters know to run the 5 year CTO, or can run a “risk version” with $5 gas.

    I’m sure Drew can fuel his 911 at $5, but the random Ford Explorer driver … not so much.)

  • +1 to Ice Pick for referencing the SP Pious episode. Awesome episode. Okay, thaaanks, bye.

    The problem there is that as you say: it works both ways. Either taxes do affect behavior or they don’t. Which is it? Is there a particular magic dollar amount? What is it?

    I can work both ways depending on which commodity you are talking about. One that has a demand that is very price inelastic wont be affected much by taxes. A commodity that has a lower price elasticity of demand will be affected. A good with a price inelastic demand would need a higher tax (or subsidy) to get the same amount of change that you’d see in a good with a lower price elasticity.

    I don’t say that taxes cause people to work harder. I say they cause me to work harder. And I suggest that it’s certainly a possible way people might react, since I rather doubt I’m unique.

    We’ve gone over this before. I think, based on empirical studies, most people will not work harder/more. Some will, but not all.

  • +1 to Ice Pick for referencing the SP Pious episode. Awesome episode. Okay, thaaanks, bye.

    The problem there is that as you say: it works both ways. Either taxes do affect behavior or they don’t. Which is it? Is there a particular magic dollar amount? What is it?

    I can work both ways depending on which commodity you are talking about. One that has a demand that is very price inelastic wont be affected much by taxes. A commodity that has a lower price elasticity of demand will be affected. A good with a price inelastic demand would need a higher tax (or subsidy) to get the same amount of change that you’d see in a good with a lower price elasticity.

    I don’t say that taxes cause people to work harder. I say they cause me to work harder. And I suggest that it’s certainly a possible way people might react, since I rather doubt I’m unique.

    We’ve gone over this before. I think, based on empirical studies, most people will not work harder/more. Some will, but not all.

    I don’t have quite the mechanistic world view that numbers people so often do. I tend to think people have complex motives, that they are not calculators, but are creatures of a matrix made of DNA, environment, free will and random chance. So I think it’s absurdly simplistic to explain human behavior either in the micro or the macro as the sum of money in, money out.

    Interesting, in that biology is having an impact on economics (evolutionary game theory) and mathematics is having an impact on biology (game theory is math). It isn’t mechanistic, it is precise language really.

    And it isn’t just money, it is utility or welfare. People want to maximize their welfare not their income. If I was paid hourly and wanted to maximize my income I’d spend every possibly hour working, but people don’t do that. Economists realize that truth, and as a result realize that people value leisure time. That is what is behind the view that for most people an increase in taxes certainly wont increase hours worked and may very well decrease hours worked.

  • john personna Link

    Trey Parker and Matt Stone are like a lot of people who, not being rocket scientists, and not really understanding the math, think it must all be “smug.”

    “It can work both ways depending on which commodity you are talking about.”

    lolz, or which political point you are shooting for.

    The thing economists don’t get about elasticities is that they don’t span cultural shifts. They are a point measure of mood. They are not a scope of all possible worlds.

    Try a price elasticity of eggs, before and after the cholesterol scare. Or aluminum canteens, spanning first the Alzheimer’s scare and then the BPA.

  • Icepick Link

    “Camry is cheaper,” not really.

    Mistake on my part. As I said in the early post I was talking about comparably sized cars. I meant “Civic”. (My wife and I have owned one of each.) And how expensive will gas have to be before your Prius is the better deal economically than a Civic? And if I buy a used Civic or a new Kia I can make even better savings. And that will hold true even if gas goes up markedly. (Several of us have crunched those numbers in this thread.)

    But the Camry mistake actually makes a good point. For a little more cost one can get more car than a Prius. As Drew mentions that would be important for families.

    You can say “South Park” but I see it as people using weak data to defend their emotional position, more than vis-versa.

    Wrong. You can get as much car for considerably less and easily cover the difference in fuel economy. Your data on the Camry shows that one can get more car for just a little more in five-year expense. There is no ECONOMIC reason to buy a Prius. They don’t look that much different than most cars their size. Their non-fuel economy performance isn’t significantly better. After eliminating all of those reasons, what other reasons are there to buy the Prius? Concern for the environment, concern over oil imports, and the desire to show off both one’s concern and one’s conspicuous consumption. Those are all emotional reasons to buy a Prius, nothing economical about any of them.

  • john personna Link

    See Ice, this is what makes me feel old all over.

    The Camry is a midsized car, by EPA designation.

    The Prius is a midsized car, by EPA designation.

    You had it right the first time.

    … and then you go on to blather about how you AREN’T moving goalposts and shuffling data to protect your position.

  • Icepick Link

    Trey Parker and Matt Stone are like a lot of people who, not being rocket scientists, and not really understanding the math, think it must all be “smug.”

    Wow, I can’t believe what a stubborn idiot you’re being on this. The math shows that economically a Prius makes NO FUCKING SENSE. None. It’s a little more economical than a Camry by the numbers you cite. It’s way behind any number of other cars.

  • john personna Link

    Ice, I’ve been through this before. I’m an engineer. I’m letting the data drive my position.

    I can tell you, the only way to beat the Prius on TCO is to step down to a smaller car.

    If you say “oh, well people can drive smaller cars, and save so ‘economically a Prius makes NO FUCKING SENSE'”

    Where are you at that point? You’ve lost your thread completely.

  • Icepick Link

    jp, I’m not moving goal posts. I’ve been in Hyundais (a lot), Civics (a lot), Camrys (a lot) and spent a fair amount of time in various sized Ford sedans when traveling. I’ve also had the chance to rid in a Prius a few times. A Prius feels like a compant. In fact, my Civic has always felt roomier. I’m tlaking about comparable cars, not what some idiotic government agency claims are similar cars. A Prius makes no economic sense.

    and then you go on to blather about how you AREN’T moving goalposts and shuffling data to protect your position.

    Wrong, dipshit. I looked into the matter when I bought my Civic. And unlike you the economics actually mattered to me at the time – I wasn’t just downsizing to make myself feel good, I needed some transport. My position THEN was that I wanted the best deal. My position NOW is that I hate having pretentious assholes tell me lies to make themsleves look saintly. One this matter the two positions fit hand in glove.

  • john personna Link

    You know, instead of being abusive you could post a few numbers.

    2011 Honda Civic Sedan 1.8L 4-cyl. 5-speed Automatic 5 year cost to own: $34,072

    That is lower than the Prius, for a car that is just a shade smaller (90.9 cu.ft. passenger volume versus 93.7)

  • john personna Link

    I guess if you are really childish you can call me some more names, all on the basis of how that 90.9 cu.ft. feels so much bigger to you than 93.7

  • john personna Link

    BTW, I don’t think you can find any “lies.”

    Just to be clear. I said to do better you had to go smaller.

  • Icepick Link

    I’m an engineer.

    And I’m a mathematician. Unless you’ve got a PhD in Mathematics or Physics I’m not going to even consider letting you imtimidate me by citing your credentials. Besides, proof by intimidation is no proof at all. (Or do they not teach engineers actual logic?)

    I’m letting the data drive my position.

    Where are you at that point? You’ve lost your thread completely.

    I’d think an engineer could tell that a Camry is more car than a Prius. Government car classifications aren’t data in and of themselves. They’re arbitrary designations designed by bureaucrats to satisfy a combination of Congressmen and auto-industry groups. IF they weren’t arbitrary then “Detroit” wouldn’t have been able to manipulate how SUVs got classified. I’m hardly surprised that they’ve classified a Prius as a mid-size. THat’s the only way to justify them.

  • john personna Link

    I’d be willing to back down, mr. mathematician, given good data.

    But why are you of all people making a touchy-feely argument?

    I gave you cubic feet. Even if those are not convincing in a visceral sense you should be be able to admit that (at least on the cars seen so far), I’m numerically correct?

    Actually, I think you should apologize for going off, considering that I have been numerically correct.

  • Icepick Link

    I don’t have quite the mechanistic world view that numbers people so often do.

    Mechanistic? For economics it’s stochastic. Actually it’s stochastic for pretty much any real-world phenomena, but that gets ignored for many applications.

    Besides, what could be more mechanistic than saying “If my taxes are raised then I’ll just work harder.”

  • john personna Link

    FWIW, here are my claims:

    a) You can’t get better real world mileage than a Prius without going to a smaller car

    b) You can’t get lower TCO than a Prius without going to a smaller car

    I actually think “a” is stronger than “b”, and that “b” can even be a little iffy at $3/gal. But I think for now both are numerically correct.

  • michael reynolds Link

    And it isn’t just money, it is utility or welfare. People want to maximize their welfare not their income.

    Not even that. Most people want love or status. Some want power, some want their own destruction. To confuse things further people habitually want two or more things that are mutually exclusive. And their desires will shift, slowly or suddenly. Humans are entirely capable of believing that their “welfare” involves a pile of meth and a girl with AIDS. Or of believing that their welfare requires all Jews to be exterminated.

    That’s why humans can’t be modeled, and why they can’t be predicted, and why you don’t see a nice, neat graph showing that lowering taxes raises productivity, or the reverse. The short version is that people are f**king crazy.

    And the problem doesn’t stop at the individual level because in addition to being individuals humans are also herd animals. They are subject to sudden, irrational changes of course, like a delta full of flamingos suddenly lifting off and wheeling around before landing somewhere different.

    When it comes to predicting much of anything economists mights as well be alchemists. Their models inevitably presuppose the existence of a creature that is as mythical as a unicorn: rational man.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Damn. Sorry about the italics. Hopefully Dave will happen along and fix that.

  • john personna Link

    BTW, speaking of numbers, the EPA publishes their size class boundaries. They use the sum of Passenger & Cargo Volume (Cu. Ft.):

    Minicompact < 85
    Subcompact 85 – 99
    Compact 100 – 109
    Mid-Size 110 – 119
    Large 120 or more

    I guess they are small ranges, and given that they are for both passenger and cargo space, their "feel" might vary.

    But I don't see that there is any arbitrary assignment.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses

  • Icepick Link

    Actually, I think you should apologize for going off, considering that I have been numerically correct.

    First, numeric descriptions of cubic feet in the passenger compartment do not automatically equal comfort. Spaces can be well designed or poorly designed for a given use. Besides, you are talking about a difference of 2.8 cubic feet. THat’s not really an impressive difference.

    I’m still looking for current specs (and for the record I was thinking of the cars I knew from five years ago), but from where I’m currently looking I see that the 2008 Camry had 101.4 cubic feet in the passenger compartment. When I’m done with dinner I’ll look for more recent data.

    But for now, tell me how 93.7 cu. ft. is closer to 101.4 cu. ft. than it is to 90.9 cu. ft. Go on, engineer, explain this for all to read….

  • john personna Link

    You understand that the EPA came up with those size classes, right?

    And that I just quoted time?

    And that I was correct that they did classify the Prius as a mid-size?

    What are you angry with me for now?

    I was correct.

  • john personna Link

    “I just quoted [them]”

  • john personna Link

    Apparently it works like this, FWIW:

    Camry Passenger Volume (101) + cargo (15) = 116

    Prius Passenger Volume (94) + Cargo (22) = 116

    (I used a few mixed sites to gather those numbers, but I think they are correct)

    So, interesting. They are both the same on “interior” volme, but divided differently between passenger cargo

    Ready to apologize now?

  • Icepick Link

    Here we go, back from dinner and several other chores, and a couple of pleasures.

    Passenger volume of various vehicles:

    Compacts
    Toyota Corolla 2010 92 cu. ft. (2011 not available at Car & Driver or the EPA site)
    Ford Focus 2011 93.4 cu. ft.
    Honda Civic 2011 90.9 cu. ft.
    Kia Forte 2011 97.0 cu. ft. (This car is officially a compact according to the EPA)

    Midsizes
    Toyota Camry 2011 101.4 cu. ft.
    Honda Accord 2011 106.0 cu. ft.
    Chevy Malibu 2011 95.0 cu. ft. (it shrank from the 2010 model, apparently)
    Ford Fusion 2011 100.3 cu. ft.
    Nissan Altima 2011 100.7 cu. ft.

    Toyota Prius 2011 93.7 cu. ft.

    So the Prius is much smaller than all but one of the other midsize vehicles I bothered to look up. And it’s even smaller than the amazing shrinking Malibu. And it’s just barely larger than the Ford Focus, and is considerably smaller (in passenger volume) than the Kia Forte.

    Please note that the Prius passenger volume is 3.3 cu. ft. SMALLER than the Kia Forte, which is a compact. And that difference is greater than the difference between the Prius and a Civic.

    So that’s some midsize car you got there. Although to be fair, it does kill most (and probably all, but I’m not going to back up through all of them) of the others on trunk volume. Not sure if that has something to do with the hybrid nature of the vehicle, or if it’s that ugly rear end.

    And that gets us to the rub. The EPA determines Size Classes for sedans by adding passenger volume and cargo volume. So the fact that the Prius has 6.6 more cu. ft. in the cargo area than a Camry and about 7.6 cu. ft. more than an Accord is how the Prius, with its small passenger space, gets to be a midsize car.

    (And yes, my personal driving knowledge deals with cars from the 2003 to 2005 models. And regardless of the numbers, the my 2004 Civic was roomier than my co-worker’s 2005 Prius. Design factors mean that not all spaces are equal. And I could look at the headroom & legroom numbers, but I don’t really see the need to fetishize these number.)

    I should also note that the Prius is several hundred pounds heavier than the compacts mentioned above. Don’t forget to factor that into long term costs for the vehicle. That’ll mean more road work long term. Please factor that externality into the carbon footprint. It won’t be much, but it will be real.

    How’s that for data?

    PS I knew something had to be up when you gave me two data points when three were called for JP. Don’t tell me how data intensive you are if you aren’t actually going to be data intensive. At best it makes your display half-assed.

  • Icepick Link

    Ready to apologize now?

    Oh please. You were wrong. I was talking about comparable cars. For most of us driving cars this size that means passenger space. If you want cargo spave you get a different kind of vehicle altogether. The Prius is small. You made a point of demonstrating that it was larger than one compact car I had mentioned. You ignored that it was much smaller than pretty much ALL midsized cars, and basically in the middle of the range of compacts. And then you made of point of thumping your chest about how data intensive you were.

    I was and am speaking about the passenger compartment. (See post on Dec 3 at 5:05 PM.) I spoke about the relative roominess of certain cars. You said that the government called it a Midsize car without even understanding (at that time) what that meant.

    More importantly I just realized that you pulled a switcheroo on me. I was comparing the Camry to to your hypothetical vehicle that got 18 MPG in the city – not to a Prius. (My post on Dec 2, at 8:32 PM.) My point in THAT post was that if people were concerned about the marginal costs on fuel they had many options before getting to a Prius. For example, they might want more passenger room, on which the Prius is weak.

    So, you had me comparing a Camry to a Prius, which prior to that post I hadn’t done. You made a big deal of explaining that a Prius and a Camry were the same kind of car, and used as proof the fact that a Civic had smaller passenger volume than a Prius -with no mention of the much roomier Camry. You accused me of moving goal posts even though you are the one that magically started comparing the Camry to the Prius AND in making a big deal of the Prius’s passenger volume. After that you made a point of explaining how data driven you were, even though you had choosen two points when three were necessary. When you finally realized you had screwed up in mentioning size class, you decided that passenger volume didn’t really matter.

    And now you’re telling me that I need to apologize? Please, I was right the first time – you’re being dishonest.

  • Icepick Link

    Here’s some more data.

    We don’t have to compare apples and oranges. We can compare apples to hybrid apples.

    I give you the Toyota Camry and the Toyota Camry Hybrid. They have the same passenger space (101.4), the hybrid has 4.4 cu. ft. less trunk space, the hybrid weighs 375 pounds more than the regular Camry. The hybrid gets the better fuel mileage (at least on average): 9 mpg more in the city, and a whopping 3 mpg more on the highway. (Although I doubt these numbers somewhat. My 2003 Camry get much better mileage than the official amounts listed.)

    And the hybrid costs about $6,000 more. (I’m looking at basic stock varieties – an automatic four-cylinder for the non-hybrid.)

    How long will it take that 9 + 3 to make it worth the added expense?

    And there’s the Ford Fusion and it’s hybrid. Trunk space is 4.7 cu. ft. less in the hybrid and it weighs 500 pounds more. But it’s much better where it counts – 19 mpg more in the city, although only 4 mpg better on the highway. And almost $8,500 more in expense. Ouch.

    For the Nissan Altima and its hybrid one loses 5.2 cu. ft. in the trunk, gains 300 pounds, gains 10 mpg in the city and 1 (one) mpg on the highway, for an additional cost of $6,700.

    For the Honda Civic and its hybrid one loses only 1.6 cu. ft. in the (admittedly small) trunk, gains only 200 pounds, picks up 14 & 9 mpg, for an additional cost of a little more than $8,000.

    So the point stands that hybrids cost a lot more than their non-hybrid counter-parts. And while the gains in mpg are (sometimes) impressive, they just don’t make economic sense for most until driven for quite some time. If a person were going to trade cars before that mileage is hit then it doesn’t make sense economically.

    jp, for the record you made the following statement:

    I like having low gasoline price exposure.

    You’re paying a heavy premium for that low exposure. MR, here’s a prime example of people NOT acting in their own economic self-interest. You win that point, unless one expands the idea of utility a great deal. (And at least some people do.)

  • john personna Link

    Why did you ignore “passenger + cargo” volume?

  • john personna Link

    Here’s the thing. I can see how coming to this fresh you could think it was all passenger volume. But, you should be able to see that it’s reasonable to use ““passenger + cargo” + cargo.”

    Think about it, you move the rear seat forward or back a few inches and it changes the passenger volume one way, the cargo volume the other.

    It doesn’t change the size of the car.

  • john personna Link

    lol, I didn’t mean 2x cargo in ““passenger + cargo” + cargo.”

    Something funny happened with my early morning copy-paste keys.

    Now, if I was demanding cargo be counted twice, that would be unreasonable 😉

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