There is a video of George Floyd’s arrest making the rounds that begins somewhat earlier than previous videos. In this video Mr. Floyd is saying “I can’t breathe” before he is arrested and before a chokehold applied to him. The claim has been made that Mr. Floyd had taken fentanyl, one of the likely side effects of fentanyl overdose is cessation of breathing, and that’s what killed him.
Does it make any difference? I don’t believe that a single individual who has taken to the streets in protests could be convinced by any evidence that Mr. Floyd was not killed by the Minneapolis police in the course of an arrest.
It would certainly make a difference to the impending court cases. I have little doubt than an acquittal will result in another round of demonstrations and riots.
The criminal case was already troubled by causation; the official medical examiner concluded that “The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” An independent autopsy commissioned by Floyd’s family diverged, finding that “What we found is consistent with what people saw.” The defendants will hire their own experts, but ultimately the prosecution was going to have to tear down a medical examiner its had to testify on its behalf in countless prosecutions.
Understandably, the prosecution was forced to bring criminal charges to save lives and property from the mob.
George Floyd is said to have had 4 times the lethal dose of fentanyl, plus alcohol and cocaine in his system, leading to the bazaar behavior initiating a perceived threat by the shop owners to call the police. Floyd’s breathing issues were verbalized prior to being put on the ground, but drowned out by the notorious image of having a knee pressed against his neck. There is even medical speculation Floyd would have died in the police car, sans the neck/knee incident.
Also lost in the Floyd saga was his announcement to the police he had COVID, then spitting on and kicking officers who were much smaller than his burley 6’5†size. Then there was his lengthy arrest record, including being a member of a home invasion gang using deadly force, whose last gig was putting a gun to the belly of a pregnant woman. Nonetheless, it’s the limited final screen shots of his life that seem to have sculpted this man into a national saint, countless murals of his face painted on walls and boarded up store fronts across the country, a statesman-like funeral with no social distancing, even a holographic image of him supposedly traveling around the country.
Furthermore, from the very beginning it has been said the officers were overcharged, deserving no more than a 3rd degree murder indictment. But, by being in the hands of a far left AG like Keith Ellison, this unsavory altercation became a useful tool for Democrats to inflame racial tension everywhere.
The bottom seems to be that, more often than not, the well being of commoners and average citizens are secondary to the passions of special interest groups, especially if an election is within sight of power-hungry politicians.
As I observed in the body of the post, I don’t think that will be successful. Should the officer be acquitted, as seems likely, the entire mess will be repeated.
Can’t reason with a populist mob about burdens of proof and elements of scienter. Mobs are going to mob. But they can get distracted from time to time.
He did not die from fentanyl. Period. If you want I can give you the long physiological/pharmacological explanation. I really am a geek at heart and do a lot of teaching but I am guessing it would be boring so let me try to explain this way. That junkie you see passed out in the park? They are at risk of dying. Narcotics blunt your drive to breathe and they relax the airway muscles, which tend to relax anyway when you sleep. (You snore when you sleep, not awake.) If Floyd had been somnolent and unresponsive to the police, if he had not been talking, then maybe fentanyl played a part. He wasn’t.
I say this as someone who has used fentanyl on, conservatively, at least 40,000 patients and chair a department where we use it on many more pts than that every year. Have read many, many papers on the drug and even helped write one on it and an analogue many years ago. People develop tolerance to narcotics very quickly so drug levels end up not being terribly helpful.
I have also participated in my pre-doctor career in the restraint of 100s of people since I worked on an inpatient Psych ward and then worked in a mental health emergency center, 3 of them actually, in the rougher areas of Philly. 12 years. Watched the police take down many people and helped them with some. My security guards were largely off duty police. The guy was in cuffs. Behind his back. I think that they could have handled the part before he was cuffed much better, but I wasn’t there so I am going to hold off criticizing that. Once he was in cuffs there was no need to sit on him and use a neck hold (which is BS since he was sitting on his neck.)
“Does it make any difference?”
It matters a lot. I dont think there are many Trump supporters who will be convinced by physiology and pharmacology since they will just stick with their narrative, but we should know that we are doing the right thing in charging those police.
Steve
There are a variety of charges against the officers:
Chauvin: 2nd degree unintentional murder, 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter.
The other cops: Aiding and abetting 2nd degree unintentional murder and aiding and abetting 2nd degree manslaughter.
I think the present evidence supports some but not all of those charges. I would be very surprised if Chavin does not get convicted for at least manslaughter.
Steve, the pharmacological “possibility†connected to Floyd’s death was made on a bigger picture evaluation dealing with the interaction of a suppressive cocktail of drugs (not only Fentanyl), as well as underlying disease morbidities, which I believe involved heart or BP problems
” I dont think there are many Trump supporters who will be convinced by physiology and pharmacology since they will just stick with their narrative, but we should know that we are doing the right thing in charging those police.”
Wrong, as usual. I have no reason to believe steve is wrong in his medical assessment. And yes, even though there may have been co-morbidities.
The real issue is the public issue. No police officer should have held his knee on Floyd’s neck like that after he was subdued. Period. Full stop. Let the medical examiners and the courts sort that out. The issue is the propaganda campaign. Floyd was pretty much a filthy dirt bag, not the hero he was instantly elevated to. And he resisted arrest. But the hero portrayal was convenient for political reasons. And so that’s how the execrable press and politicians played it. And look at the cost. Just look at the cost. A pox on them.
@steve, there is clearly a difference between expected outcomes from drugs prescribed by a doctor compared with a person intoxicated with Fentanyl, meth and alcohol who has underlying coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. I assume how this shakes out is that defense will introduce testimony from the medical examiner concerning all of the different drugs in his system, there will be an argument about what dosage that suggests, and arguments about how those various drugs and health conditions interact in piecemeal and various combinations.
Also, the hold used was a permissible use of force in Minneapolis, though I believe that is not true in many other places. And if the issues become whether the city’s policy is unconstitutional, or whether or not the officer followed his training, then you are in an arena for civil suits, like one doctors kill someone through failing to utilize the proper standard of care.
@andy, the jury could decide that the officer needs to be charged with something and pick one. But at least as to the element of causation, it is the same element for each charge and should appear that way in the jury instructions.
jan- This was the claim.
“The claim has been made that Mr. Floyd had taken fentanyl, one of the likely side effects of fentanyl overdose is cessation of breathing, and that’s what killed him.”
That claim is wrong. You dont go straight from compiling and talking to not breathing due to a narcotic unless you give a large IV dose.
” not the hero he was instantly elevated to”
Agree with that. We do trauma so I get to meet a lot of dirt bags. If he is not a true dirt bag he is at least a first cousin to one.
Steve
“@steve, there is clearly a difference between expected outcomes from drugs prescribed by a doctor compared with a person intoxicated with Fentanyl, ”
Sure, but the claim was made they died because they stopped breathing due to fentanyl. He did not exhibit the behaviors you see when someone stops breathing from fentanyl. The drug levels are not that helpful because of tolerance issues. When I have a bad chronic pain pt they are often receiving 4 times the “lethal dose” on an hourly basis. My guess is that the defense will probably pursue this because everyone “knows” that people die from fentanyl overdoses. Get a jury ignorant of medicine and it might work.
However, if they have a jury with a bunch of medical people familiar with narcotics and how they work they wont spend much time on that. They could certainly pursue the meth (or cocaine) he tested positive for. With his coronary artery disease he was probably more sensitive to arrhythmias and the stimulant could have increased that likelihood. That would have been on top of the big increase in his endogenous catechols from being restrained and having trouble breathing. That said there is no way I know of to prove that was or was not the case.
Steve
@steve, “causation” is a legal concept, not a medical one, though medical experts will testify and try to inform a jury’s decision. A defense attorney can’t argue that everyone “knows†that people die from fentanyl overdoses. He needs to present an expert witness that can identify studies and findings of government agencies about the risk of fentanyl abuse. And by “abuse” I mean, non-prescribed usage of it or some illicitly manufactured analog; if he’s got a doctor’s prescription, then the doctor is going to be called to testify.
The prosecution has the burden to prove causation beyond a reasonable doubt, the defense simply needs to present competent evidence to sow doubt. Defense doesn’t have to prove he died of fentanyl, though I think your missing the larger point, there appears to be evidence that Floyd was experiencing medical distress before Chauvin touched him, no doubt as a result of being arrested, having a gun pointed at him, and presumably all of the other excitements that led to the 911 call that said he wasn’t acting right. Criminal cases involving multiple contributing factors are hard to prosecute; they are common in civil litigation, but then the responsibility is distributed ten-percent here, 25-percent there, 40-percent was the plaintiff’s own damn fault, etc.
My personal (not legal opinion) is that the officers should have recognized how medically compromised Floyd was, just by his behavior sitting in his vehicle. When he expressed breathing difficulties, that is when medical assistance should have been requested. To me putting him on the ground, in restraints, would have only worsened his condition. It’s painful to even watch the video.
PD- So I am a bit cynical about juries. I think there is some truth to the idea that they are the 12 people who couldnt figure out some way to get out of jury duty that day. There has been so much written in the press about narcotics killing people and fentanyl in particular that I think a jury will be heavily predisposed to believe that fentanyl could have been a cause of death when the defense has an expert make that claim. It would take a superb expert for the prosecution to be able to explain things well enough to erase doubt for most people, or so I believe. Dave is bright and well educated and he seemed to entertain the idea. Heck, this has already been bandied about in several news cycles and the claims will be made again. I dont see much chance they find 12 people who haven’t been exposed to the idea.
Steve
Not particularly. I was actually more impressed by his saying “I can’t breathe” before the chokehold was applied.
George Floyd died of “asphyxia due to neck compression” according to the report prepared by the Floyd family’s autopsy report. Prepared by Dr. Michael Baden, coincidentally the same Dr. Baden hired to examine and report on the death of Michael Brown in Ferguson Mo. where he determined Brown was “shot while trying to surrender”.
So we go from, “hands up don’t shoot”, to “I can’t breathe”.
Floyd could reasonably have been suspected of having a heart attack before the police even touched him. They should have called an ambulance.
Well guess what? They did. That’s why the 9 1/2 minute restraint was used, waiting for EMT’s, because officers suspected he was suffering from excited delirium syndrome, which itself can be fatal even with no choke hold applied.
Another point. Derek Chauvin weighs less than 160 lb.,Floyd 240.
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
In 1970 he could never have become a Chicago cop (nor I suspect a Minneapolis cop). Physical restrictions have been relaxed to allow for a more diverse police force. I have tried without success to identify if that has made any differences in strategies for achieving situational dominance (a concept in policing).