This morning I read three different columns by three different writers from two different political parties in three different outlets that might as well all have been written from the same rough draft. The gist was this.
I don’t necessarily think that Trump did the wrong thing and it looks like it’s turning out okay but I don’t like Trump, I wouldn’t have done it, and I don’t like the process he uses to arrive at his courses of action.
I don’t like Trump, either, but I acknowledge that he was elected president fair and square and that presidents get to do things in their own way. We don’t get to micromanage. That’s not the way things work.
I agree that he gets to do things however he wants. However, we certainly have the right to criticize his process. We have that right with every POTUS. That is the way things work. He has the right to ignore the criticism or respond or whatever.
I would say that I didnt see any advantage in what he did and I dont know how it turns out yet. It also looks like it commits us to staying in Iraq longer which I think is a mistake. What are we going to get out of that?
Steve
I don’t think this is completely over yet. The missile strike turned out to be signaling, but Iran has stated that was only the first phase of their retribution.
‘I don’t like the process he uses to arrive at his courses of action.’
That’s essentially the problem with the people who hate on POTUS: It’s almost completely a question of style. I’m with Chairman Deng on that: I don’t care what color the cat it, I want it to catch mice.
I don’t think it’s completely a matter of style. I think they don’t trust Trump and want to micromanage his presidency. That is reflected in the House’s conduct as well.
I’m fine with limiting the power of the presidency. It should be done with law not by editorial, column, or op-ed.
I didn’t vote for this president, as there have been a number of other presidents I did not vote for. I have a very big trust issue with this president, so I won’t say I hate him, I will say he does make me angry.
I do believe that this president is extremely dangerous in so many ways.
The timing of this murder is questionable and suspicious in my mind, time will tell what comes of it. If you have a hornets nest in your yard, leave them alone, poke them with a stick and you pay for it many times over.
This, in my opinion has been a big attempt to distract from the coming impeachment trial.
And of course this president can’t help himself, he’s poking the hornets nest again today.
Let’s have as fair a trial in the senate as we can. He is only an elected official not a king, not a god, just a very dishonest man. Get him out of the way and keep his finger off the trigger.
“That’s essentially the problem with the people who hate on POTUS: It’s almost completely a question of style.”
Style is a big part certainly, but process is something different. The federal government has an inflexible and highly bureaucratic way of operating that’s been built up over the last 70-odd years. Trump was used to a much more flexible structure where he, at the top, could much more easily direct and rearrange things. He had a ton of control.
But that doesn’t work for the federal government. There are Constitutional, bureaucratic, cultural, legal, and process impediments that must be worked through and Trump’s bull-doze approach can’t get very far. So he gets frustrated. But the government is what it is. It can’t be turned on a dime or reformed by Presidential will. And no one in Washington seems genuinely interested in making the government more nimble and accountable.
I think style is mostly being used as a pejorative when people say stuff like ” It’s almost completely a question of style”. While it might be true for people who just want to criticize Trump no matter what he does, for the rest of us process matters. If you dont have a coherent process you are more likely to make errors and it will likely be harder to recover. Shooting from the hip is great, until it isn’t and then you wish there had been a coherent process.
Andy pointed that process in govt is difficult to change, and he has more experience, but at least in medicine (quasi-governmental I think) it isn’t that difficult to change most process. And if it is difficult to change govt process that is no reason not to try. Create new processes. Isn’t he the leader? Maybe text less and lead? I realize that would require actual work, but he says he loves America so surely it is worth a bit of work.
From the outside it looks like Trump has very little process. He throws darts at the board hoping to please his base. If it looks like it won’t work he backs out. Also, we have been lucky enough that he only does this so far with countries we can defeat in any kind of war, and most of the negative effects of what he has done are likely felt mostly after he is gone. (Now there is a pattern. Run up the national debt and let someone later deal with it, though he is hardly unique there.)
Steve
So, what Constitutional wrongs has Trump committed?
Did he violate the Public Records Act? Was he involved in any kind of espionage? Did he use Executive privilege maneuvers to limit the Mueller investigation? Did he jeopardize national security by handling and exposing sensitive, classified material in inappropriate ways? Did delaying payments to Ukraine involve lengthy periods of time, money advantage to him or his family, or not delivering weapons requested by the Ukrainians? Did he ease or increase sanctions on countries we consider bad actors or enemies – Russia, NK, Iran.
BTW, Eric Holder, during his time as AG, described targeting an enemy combatant was not an assassination, but rather was a “defensive action. Furthermore, the past administration invaded sovereign territory to kill OBL without informing Congress or anyone else, as was done with Awar Awlaki (sp) when he was targeted and killed by a drone, along with his son. Where were cries that this was a dangerous play, creating outrage from political opponents and the media?
Trump has shown himself to be a confidant, charismatic, and merciful leader in this time of crisis. He was tested by the Iranian regime, and chose to strike in a way that maximized effect and minimized civilian casualties. I did vote for him. The qualities you might choose for your son-in-law or next door neighbor are not the same as those you would choose for an American President. Takes a confident man to make hard decisions. If that makes the weak sisters nervous, so be it.
…also, when al-Awliki, and Gaddafi (for that matter) were killed (assassinated) there were no â€imminent danger†protests or questions posed discrediting these actions taken without Congressional approval.
I find the frequency in which Dems decry events, rules, policies that they once employed or supported themselves, is stunning. Whether it involves moral equivalency of military targeting , presidential overreach, impeachment protocols, border safety, they now sing different divisive tunes. When Obama, for instance took out OBL, there was a congressional resolution passed by 100 senators praising the military for their successful mission. A similar Soleimani Resolution, patterned after the OBL one, has now been introduced, with the Dems dissing it.
Dems are so disingenuous and hypocritical, IMO.
Shorter Larry – give him a fair trial then hang him.
I am 76 years old. Trump is the best President since Eisenhower. The great majority of complaints about him come from socialist ideologues who actually hate middle and working class Americans. People who hate Trump for style or hair color or whatever are utterly blind to the great evil that is Hillary and Bill Clinton. For the love of God, Hillary is suspected of complicity in several murders! She is the most corrupt politician in the country. She openly solicited and got bribes from foreign countries.
If you voted for Clinton in 2016, you need to see your priest now.
“Did he use Executive privilege maneuvers to limit the Mueller investigation?”
Yes.
” Did he jeopardize national security by handling and exposing sensitive, classified material in inappropriate ways? ”
His admin is using private emails but it hasn’t been investigated, so maybe. Of note, Clinton didnt either. The Pompeo run State Department investigated and found national security was not jeopardized. Of course we had Trump talking about secure info in public, but he is POTUS so it is automatically OK.
“Did delaying payments to Ukraine involve lengthy periods of time, money advantage to him or his family, or not delivering weapons requested by the Ukrainians?”
Yes, it helped with his re-election effort.
Gaddafi et al were not leaders in a country in a position to do harm to us. Iraq is a country we claim we want to keep out of the Iran sphere of influence as much as possible, but we killed an Iraq general also. So we dont gain much on the upside by the killings and there is downside.
“Trump is the best President since Eisenhower.”
It really is a cult.
“When Obama, for instance took out OBL, there was a congressional resolution passed by 100 senators praising the military for their successful mission.”
Did anyone really think Saudi Arabia would go to war with us over killing OBL? Nope. Wasn’t a lot of downside risk.
Steve
Even Mueller commented on how his document and interview requests were met with cooperatIon by POTUS. It was only when the House continued their investigations was executive privilege applied.
Obama had incidents of “loose lips,†where Russians were tipped off about military activities in Syrian locations, directly leading to bombing these areas and deaths. I don’t recall any casualties occurring because of Trump leaking sensitive information to others, that was then negatively acted on. Obama also warned Iran and foiled Israel’s operation to take out Soleimani.
So, Pompeo had an unsecured server too? And, Trump said he didn’t know anything about it, even though he communicated to his SOS by a false name? Oh, but the current POTUS doesn’t do email! That all occurred during the prior presidency.
Asking the Ukraine president to share in a goal both presidents explicitly campaigned on – cleaning up government corruption (draining the DC swamp, in Trump’s vernacular) – can’t be said to have helped an election that was over a year away. Also, Bill Clinton and Ukraine signed an agreement in his 2nd term, laying out terms to mutually share information dealing with corruption in their countries. This agreement, though, doesn’t fit the “impeachment narrative,†so is rarely mentioned.
Killing someone is a serious act, whether taking out a Leader in Libya, a terrorist in hiding, or a terrorist involved in active recruitment of future terrorists. In the instance of Soleimani, he has been described by many as the worst of the worst in the ongoing ME turmoil, and the mastermind spreading and coordinating the state sponsored terror promoted by Iran and it’s proxies. For someone now to parse and separate out this most recent drone strike, from others taken in a former administration, is true partisan rationalization.
“Asking the Ukraine president to share in a goal both presidents explicitly campaigned on”
If he asked that there wouldn’t have been an impeachment. He asked them to announce an investigation of Biden. (Plus some nonsense about the “server” that computer literate people know is nonsense.)
“Also, Bill Clinton and Ukraine signed an agreement in his 2nd term, laying out terms to mutually share information dealing with corruption in their countries. ”
Correct. Clinton didnt ask them to investigate a political rival.
Next, Barr said that Mueller said Trump was cooperative. Mueller had the following in his report. Plus, Trump refused to be interviewed. Remember that Clinton got interviewed. (This was the genius behind Barr releasing his own report, not the synopsis that Mueller had prepared for release. You remember what Barr said, not Mueller.)
“Third, many of the President’s acts directed at witnesses, including discouragement of cooperation with the government and suggestions of possible future pardons, occurred in public view. While it may be more difficult to establish that public-facing acts were motivated by corrupt intent the President’s power to influence actions, persons, and events is enhanced by his unique ability to attract attention through the use of mass communications. And no principle of law excludes public acts from the scope of obstruction statutes. If the likely effect of the acts is to intimidate witnesses or alter their testimony, the justice system’s integrity is equally threatened…..
Our investigation found multiple acts by the President that were capable of exerting undue influence over law enforcement investigations, including the Russian-interference and obstruction investigations.”
Trump publicly announced pulling back in North Syria with a lot of Kurd casualties as a result. We had been working closely with them against ISIS.
“In the instance of Soleimani, he has been described by many as the worst of the worst in the ongoing ME turmoil”
By whom? Did you even know who he was before he got killed? He did in Iraq what we did in Afghanistan when we supported bin Laden and company. Remember when Reagan had Afghan freedom fighters in the White House? The Russians invaded Afghanistan. Some Afghans wanted to fight back. We armed and trained them. The US invaded Iraq, illegally, and some Iraqis wanted to fight back. Iran armed and trained them. As a result, you call Soeimani a terrorist. (To be clear, once again since conservatives dont do nuance, even though the US and Russia were both wrong, Iran was arming Iraq fighters who were killing US soldiers, even if they shouldn’t have been there. Some of those may have been people I served with or former patients. I am not going to cry over his death.)
I notice that one again you cant list any real upsides to Soleimani’s death for us. The downsides clearly dont bother you since like most people you dont have fronds or family in the military I suspect. It has been 10 years since the war in Iraq when it would have made a lot more sense to kill him. Though that does bring up the question of why we arent killing the Sunni leaders who fought against us and killed many more Americans.
Steve
It’s fascinating to watch steve pluck out tortured little out of context tidbits to make his points…………while claiming Trump supporters are a cult. Fascinating.
You can dither and nuance situations and decisions until opportunities pass by. Winners don’t operate that way. Which is why Senators make poor Presidents.
One the one hand this, on the other hand that, perhaps we should convene a committee etc.
It’s fascinating to se you guys cite Trump (or his toadies) lies as facts. It is fascinating that you actually cannot cite any advantages to the killing and ignore downsides. A simple cost benefit analysis. The cult just knows that if Trump did it they need to support it.
Steve
When my son went to public school I was active in PTA, leading lots of school fundraisers etc. On my own office bulletin board, though, I posted a cartoon with a circle of birds chirping at each other. The explanation below was, “If you don’t want to get anything done, form a committee.†That’s not only true in local organizational politics, but also super apparent in the egos occupying DC politics.
My favorite wisecrack about committees is that a committee is a group of men, none of whom can do anything independently, who meet to agree that nothing can be done.
Steve, the “cultist†people you constantly belittle who actually weigh what Trump says, before automatically condemning him or commending him, does little to validate your points.
Whatever Trump critics may say about him, he has been more transparent than most previous leaders about his judgement calls. Between his incessant public tweets, multitude of spontaneous pressers, unscripted off-the-cuff commentaries, people are pretty aware of his foibles, changing ideas, and policy convictions. With other presidents, especially Obama, this was not the case – especially when covertly constructing the Iranian nuclear deal, the fog-of-war Benghazi lies, the many drone kills, the uranium sales to Russia, the approval of a Russian uranium sale to Iran in January 2017 – enough for 10 nuclear bombs, the Nixon-like IRS targeting scheme, F& F cover-ups, battlefield disinformation ploys, obstructing the work of IGs ( 47 writing a complaint letter to the DOJ), the outright firing of one dissenting IG….so many questionable if not malignant incidents that sailed by a then compliant, milquetoast MSM who are now like pit bulls when it comes to even a rumor of transgression by the current POTUS.
People like me only want fair play, unbiased investigative coverage by the media, no matter who wins the WH. I don’t think that’s been the case for the last 3 years.
BTW, I don’t know how confronting Iranian terrorism, by killing Soleimani, will eventually work out. However, it has been telling to see the Iranian people now protesting and calling for the resignation of the mullahs and people in power. And, unlike Trump’s predecessor, who showed no support or empathy for the Iranian people following their presumed rigged elections in 2009, Trump is tweeting, in Farsi, his support for the Iranian people wanting their freedom. I have this heart-felt thing about the common man/woman putting their lives on the line in order to free themselves from an oppressive government – a situation we may soon find ourselves in should one of the current democrat contenders (all supporting a bigger central government role in a citizen’s life) win the upcoming election.