The Comedy of Classified Document Errors

I will only repeat what I have said before:

  1. We classify too many documents.
  2. There should be a regular, mandatory process under which exiting administrations turn over all classified documents with searches performed by some competent third party or pseudo-third party agency.

IMO putting such a procedure in place should be one of the new Congress’s highest priorities. Among its many other urgently high priorities.

36 comments… add one
  • CuriousOnlooker Link

    Does finding more documents after saying they thought they had them all mean Biden like Trump is risking obstruction of justice??

    It would be interesting to do the same exercise with Obama, Bush, and Clinton to see the extent of the problem.

  • Jan Link

    If the second suggestion was ever followed – having a standardized, mandatory process for exiting administrations to follow regarding classified documents turnover – there would be less reason for one party to create a scandal over the opposing party’s handling of such documents. Now how much fun would that be for a political party to be denied exploiting their counterpart!!!

  • Does finding more documents after saying they thought they had them all mean Biden like Trump is risking obstruction of justice??

    Well, two things. The more documents are found in Joe Biden’s personal possession, the more amusing is the claim that it was an error by an inexperienced staffer. The other is that I’d sure like to know what the operative definition of “cooperation” is.

  • steve Link

    Have they refused to give up any of the documents? Has anyone had to get a warrant? I haven’t seen that so did I miss it? No matter what you plan someone will make a mistake. If its noticed that a mistake is made then requests to return the documents should babe returned without question.

    Steve

  • You don’t know any of that, steve,and neither do I. All that’s known publicly is what Biden’s lawyers have told us. They could have found 1,000 top secret documents while they told us about 10. Without independent verification there’s no way to know.

    At this point they’ve had so much time to cover their tracks we’ll never know the real story.

  • Steve Link

    So you think it possible there were warrants and it has been covered up? That the National Archives asked for confidential stuff and they refused but it’s covered up?

    Steve

  • Either that or the National Archives hasn’t asked for anything. The Presidential Records Act does not appear to require the National Archives to do anything—the transfer is supposed to be “automatic”.

    The point is that it has been six years since Joe Biden was vice president and 14 since he was a senator. Either the National Archives has been enormously passive or President Biden’s cooperation is pretty late-coming.

  • Andy Link

    From the reporting I’ve read, the latest documents found in Biden’s home were from a complete search of the home by the Justice Department and FBI. It appears that Biden either sanctioned this search, or did not interfere when it was requested.

    Other than finding yet more documents, this appears normal to me – there’s an active federal investigation, Biden appears to be fully cooperating with it, Biden’s home was searched by federal authorities who, it seems, did not need to obtain a warrant, and it’s likely that other places will be searched as well.

  • As I see it cooperation would have been to call in the FBI as soon as classified documents were first found several months ago. What we’re seeing now is a form of cover-up in which Biden’s lawyers sanitize areas and release a few documents to make it look good. Only then does the FBI get involved.

  • Jan Link

    I think Biden fans are spending way too much time comparing, and minimizing, Biden retaining classified docs to Trump’s classified document travails. After all, the proven way to scurry away from any uncomfortable topic that could indict a dem is to “blame it on Trump.” It has worked nicely before, taking the focus off of dem transgressions onto a man whose character and deeds have been early on smeared and gutted.

    Consequently, evidence detailing self enrichment and influence peddling by the Biden family, over lucrative dealings with Russia, China and Ukraine, have been softened, denied, or completely overlooked. Even this latest exposure of Biden’s misdeeds unequal justice has been applied in how Trump was treated versus Biden:

    1. Biden (unlike Trump) was not asked to certify there were no more missing docs to be found.
    2. No subpoenas were issued to Biden, even though additional classified docs have been trickling in, with no end in sight.
    3. There was no dramatic raid on Biden’s residence with guns drawn.
    4. Biden’s attorneys were present during the search for docs, while Trump was not allowed to have any such legal representation.
    5. Much has been made about the number of photographed docs intentionally strewed around Trump’s office (many have said it was an orchestrated photo op). However, the “6 sets” recently found in Biden’s possession have been downplayed, without any further explanation that one set of docs could contain 1000 pages.
    6. Trump had disputed documents for less than 2 years. Biden retained classified docs for indefinite periods of time, stretching way back into his years in the Senate. Senator Cruz has stated, as a Senator, no documents are allowed out of highly secured areas. How can one then just fluff off Biden’s actions as being nothing more than “unintentional?”

  • Andy Link

    ” What we’re seeing now is a form of cover-up in which Biden’s lawyers sanitize areas and release a few documents to make it look good. Only then does the FBI get involved.”

    That’s one theory, but one that doesn’t make sense to me. Biden’s lawyers could have originally “sanitized” the material without telling anyone. Indeed, I think that’s what most people would do. If I’m honest, if I happened to find a Top Secret document here in my house, I would probably just destroy it. I certainly would be reluctant to open myself up to a potential criminal investigation.

    So the whole idea that Biden’s lawyers “sanitized” stuff is contradicted by the fact that they didn’t sanitize stuff, and instead reported it.

    So I think it’s a relevant point that Biden’s lawyers found material, reported it, and turned it over to the archives. And if Biden’s people had actually sanitized his home after the first discovery, there would have been no more discoveries for the FBI to find.

    If this is some kind of grand conspiracy, it is a very strange and incompetent one.

    Regardless, there’s now a formal investigation. Biden’s lawyers will be interviewed. Lying to the FBI is a crime and for a lawyer, career-ending. If there is anything of the sort that you’re claiming happened, we would need to believe that Biden’s lawyers would lie for him and take that risk – a strange thing to do after they had already acted honestly by disclosing the existence of classified material in the first place.

    And this is a sharp contrast to both Clinton and Trump.

    I do think the legitimate criticism is how the administration kept this quiet for so long, and the federal investigation only started after the disclosures become public. It seems they hoped this wouldn’t come out, the documents would get quietly returned, and that would be that. The fact that public disclosure is what forced a formal investigation is bad but is the kind of behavior I would expect from any politician.

  • So the whole idea that Biden’s lawyers “sanitized” stuff is contradicted by the fact that they didn’t sanitize stuff, and instead reported it.

    That isn’t why I would do because it wouldn’t pass the smell test. What I would do is what was done: release a few documents and either proclaim or merely allow people to assume that was the lot.

    If this is some kind of grand conspiracy, it is a very strange and incompetent one.

    I think that incompetence is always a good assumption.

    However, I agree there are differences between this and Trump. For me the largest is that there was mutual hostility between Trump and the DoJ expressed in substantial truculence. Biden’s lawyers have been handling the situation much better.

  • Jan Link

    If the DOJ was an impartial overseer of the law, I could see why Trump’s “truculence” vs Biden’s “cooperation” might be considered a factor in assessing which person should be treated more harshly in these two classified document transgressions. However, this is not the case with our current AG – a man seemingly embittered by having his nomination to the Supreme Court squashed by a past Republican-led majority. Consequently, most of AG Garlands rulings the last few years have been rendered along partisan lines, vindictively processed when it relates to which side of the ideological aisle a defendant sits. For instance, parents railing against liberal school board curriculum agendas are labeled “domestic terrorists” by Garland. j6 protestors, 3 young Marines, are hunted down, 2 years after the event, like dogs, while most Antifa or BLM activists involved in violence are usually absolved of their acts. Do you really believe a DOJ, having an AG politically-allied with Trump instead of Biden, would have treated these document indiscretions differently, with greater deference when it came to a sudden, rather violently conducted raid on an ex-president’s home?

  • Andy Link

    “That isn’t why I would do because it wouldn’t pass the smell test. What I would do is what was done: release a few documents and either proclaim or merely allow people to assume that was the lot.”

    That’s a bad messaging strategy, not a conspiracy. If Biden or his people want the public to assume that the initial batch was the lot or wanted to be able to credibly proclaim that it was, then you would think they would take steps to ensure that additional documents didn’t keep dripping out. And yet, in reality, additional documents keep dripping out.

    And if the goal is to protect Biden, then simply making the original documents disappear with no one the wiser is what would have been done.

    If the goal were to prevent more drips after the initial disclosure and allow people to assume it was only a few documents, then you’d take proactive steps to ensure that no one – especially a law enforcement search of your home – would find additional documents. It’s been almost two months since the initial documents were found, yet that obviously didn’t happen because new documents are still turning up.

    The administration’s message may be bad and dumb, but there’s no evidence so far of a criminal conspiracy.

  • Andy Link

    Jan,

    “If the DOJ was an impartial overseer of the law, I could see why Trump’s “truculence” vs Biden’s “cooperation” might be considered a factor in assessing which person should be treated more harshly in these two classified document transgressions.”

    Consider these two scenarios:

    Suppose you have something in your home that you do not legally own and have no legal right to possess.

    Now, in one case, suppose you refuse to cooperate in turning that stuff over to the legitimate owner and law enforcement has to get a warrant and raid your house to get the stuff that you do not legally own to return it to its rightful owner.

    Now, in a second case, suppose you just turn the stuff over to who it belongs to.

    While you may suffer legal consequences in both cases from having stuff you don’t legally own, and those consequences could vary significantly depending on how you acquired the stuff you don’t own, the first example of not cooperating is going to be treated more harshly than the second for reasons that should be obvious.

  • Drew Link

    “It would be interesting to do the same exercise with Obama, Bush, and Clinton to see the extent of the problem.”

    Well, we know what the Clintons do. They have Sandy Berger go in, loosen his belt, and documents just jump into his pants, like a jumping cholla. And Hillary? Well, get me some bleachbit, a hammer, and some friendly lawyers to vouch that its all wedding planning stuff and………….viola!!

  • Drew Link

    But seriously……

    This whole thing is political. As pointed out, there are far too many classified docs. Attempts to parse which transgression is worse, Trump or Biden, are childish. You just have to laugh at the locked with my Corvette argument. Having them in the same house, like old dirty rags, with a crackhead with ties to the Chinese government boggles the mind.

    Takes classified docs seriously my ass. Who believes this crap?

  • Jan Link

    https://thefederalist.com/2023/01/23/discovery-of-more-biden-docs-proves-mar-a-lago-raid-was-just-another-russia-collusion-hoax/

    ”This entire sequence began because NARA went looking for missing documents and then, rather than work with Trump to establish his presidential library and to arrange for the documents to be stored under the auspices of NARA’s custody at a mutually agreeable location — something NARA had done for Obama — NARA created a federal criminal case out of the matter.

    Had NARA dug through former Senator and then-Vice President Biden’s documents looking for the smoking gun that was not there, they would have discovered the classified documents Biden absconded with too — and likely many more documents that over the last decade-plus years disappeared forever. Ditto for Obama.

    The most recent discovery of “six items” containing an untold number of classified documents at Biden’s Delaware home illustrates this point. It also brings into focus the get-Trump scheme launched by a “backbench bureaucrat” that culminated in the raid on the former president’s Mar-a-Lago home”

    People can go around and around in trying to justify who is more liable or at fault in this document debacle. Andy continues to say the measure of cooperation is significant in coming to a judgment call against Trump’s actions. However, for the life of me, as this current Biden scandal unfolds, it seems to me that Biden’s document mishandling went on longer – spanning his time as both Senator and VP – , was far more egregious in the inappropriate, unlocked places they were found, and had a permissive archivist who didn’t seem to care much about the safe handling of classified documents until they were boxed up by a Trump detail and taken away. The double standard observed, and then executed, in these closely related scenarios, however, defies the statements of those saying Biden should be treated less harshly than his predecessor.

  • Drew Link

    Andy

    Hunter Bidens laptop.

    It all starts there. Miraculously, after years, documents are “discovered”……….

    Talk about trying to get ahead of it.

  • Drew Link

    Jan – Despite their protestations, the Archives are well known for their leftist bent.

  • Jan Link

    Drew, there is so much wrong with this administration and all the various embedded bureaucracies within the DC maze – most of them “lefties” in their politics and ideology. Ironically the only reason Biden’s document follies was even turned over to the DOJ was that a NARA IG heard about it, pulling the covers off the “cover up” Biden, his attorneys, Garland had hoped for – keeping all this quiet. That’s why this was buried after discovery on Nov 2nd, not to publicly emerge until January 2023. Basically, there is so much more suspicious activity surrounding Biden’s scurrilous conduct than was reported on dealing with Trump’s episode of his withholding of document. And, yes Hunter Biden’s ignored laptop is tied into all this Biden family corruption.

  • steve Link

    So the definition of truculence is refusing to return stuff you shouldn’t have? Must be some New Age dictionary. I guess it also means that you have your lawyer send a letter claiming you looked and dont have any more documents.

    Everyone who isn’t in the Trump cult has a left wing bent.

    Steve

  • Drew Link

    Looks like steve, approaching retirement, is auditioning for a spot on The View. Or maybe Jean Pierre’s spot……………..

  • Drew Link

    A sane voice:
    Don’t read it, steve, you are insane, and totally driven by your cult talking points.

    https://jonathanturley.org/2023/01/22/the-immaculate-possession-biden-defense-is-vast-becoming-unsustainable/

  • Jan Link

    Steve labels those who differentiate Trump’s actions as more benign than Biden’s regarding “documentgate,” as cultish. And yet, when has Steve ever looked at and owned up to the clear observation that Biden’s cognition as well as character is severely flawed and hardly acceptable for the responsibility of POTUS? From his many untruths about his own life, profiting off of
    countries considered enemies, his
    family’s sordid past, his countless plagiarisms of others, many embarrassing gaffes – it isn’t about
    his R or D status, it’s that he has never
    been fit for nor deserved the presidency of this country!

  • steve Link

    Biden is flawed, just not as badly as Trump.

    Hmm, I am not seeing any commentary by you guys about Pence. Am I surprised? Nope. Is Pence, like Biden, acting within expected norms, unlike Trump? Yup.

    Steve

  • Jan Link

    Let’s see, Trump….

    Had an actual plan for exiting Afghanistan in an orderly manner, not sacrificing lives in doing so, and keeping Bagram Air Force Base.

    Supported the keystone pipe line and energy independence.

    Inflation was less than 2% when he left office.

    The southern border was well managed. Deaths from drug overdoses were decreasing. They are on the rise now because of the unrestricted access and actions of the drug cartels.

    The Abraham Accords, brought about under Trump, have been a positive game changer for the countries signing on to them. Under Biden other ME countries have only become closer to Russia and China

    There were no new wars.

    There was lower crime.

    CRT was discouraged and curtailed.

    The economy was starting to rally at the end of 2020. Much higher optimism in the small business community.

    Trump may be flawed, but his policies were good for the people of this country. He was not compromised by Chinese or Ukraine money. OTOH, you can’t say the same about how this country has fared under Biden’s leadership. Then there are all those questionable exchanges of money in the Biden family from foreign entities.

  • steve Link

    Trump had a plan? He knows squat about the military so it was the military that had plans. Trump was too afraid to go ahead knowing it was likely that the Afghans would not cooperate with the plans.

    No one wants to build keystone, not even the energy companies.

    We had massive unemployment while he was in office. He ran up the debt.

    Palestinians, the tough part, still arent resolved.

    Crime began its rise under Trump. It continued but is now dropping.

    CRT is a bogeyman that does not exist is American schools K-12.

    Employment and GDP have continued to increase.

    There remains no evidence that Joe Biden has done anything you claim. Trump businesses took tons of foreign money while he was in office.

    HEY, WHAT ABOUT PENCE?

    Steve

  • Don’t look at me. Based on personal knowledge I think that ALL politicians are crooks. At the very least they’re shmucks and not to be trusted.

    As far as I’m concerned the comedy just becomes funnier. And more tragic.

    The two parties are just bickering over who the bigger crook is. Who cares? They’re all crooks.

  • steve Link

    I dont think they are all crooks, but a lot fo them are. The problem with your POV is that you fail or dont want to see differences. In one case you have a guy refusing to give stuff back, suggesting stuff was taken intentionally. In the other 2 cases you have cooperation, suggesting it was accidental/incompetence and probably on the past of lower level staff. That coupled with special rules for VIPs to begin with means that if you went and searched everyone’s homes you probably find a lot fo stuff. However, you are still left with one unique standout.

    Also, on the topic of energy independence its a bit complicated, but if you believe it is real it is clearly due to the run up in fracking we saw during the Obama admin.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2022/10/01/us-energy-independence-has-grown/?sh=610fd1ab657e

    Steve

  • I dont think they are all crooks, but a lot fo them are.

    Yeah, 99% give the others a bad name.

    Quibbling over differences allows partisans to claim that THEIR crooks are better. I don’t think the Trump is NOT a crook and I don’t think that what he did was not obstruction. I just think that sitting on classified documents for a decade or more is not “cooperation”.

  • jan Link

    Steve, I just read that the Biden Administration is now quietly regretting their decision to terminate keystone. So, I question that broad claim that no one wanted it built.

    Employment, especially the number of those participating in work, was very high from 2017-2020. These numbers also included a higher proportion of women, minorities and those less educated. The small, stable inflationary number, under the former president, belies much of your criticism regarding debt negatively impacting the economy like it currently does. Wages, under Biden, simply can’t keep up with the enormous rise in goods people are experiencing.

    Crime rose with the inept policies of liberal DAs in large cities around the country, such as Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles and so on. Defund the police was the cattle call of the Dems. What Trump could do was curtail drug and human trafficking across the border, which happened under his watch, but was axed when Biden took over.

    The Abraham Accords benefited commerce between those signed on to this accord – easing travel, communication, and building a better coalition of countries to counter Iran’s aggressive actions. The two-some years since this accord was signed has been touted as a very successful alliance. Why dismiss its success by making a pointless jab about Palestine still being on the table!

    CRT, a very Marxist-like, anti-family agenda that Trump pushed back on, but was reestablished under Biden, and is being adopted by the military and in various schools around the country. Garland’s son-in-law also has monetary interests in CRT teaching material. Calling this a boogeyman is simply playing monkey-face, covering your ears and eyes to shut out what is amassing around you.

    Biden and his bagman son have been overt opportunists in squeezing money out of foreign countries – Ukraine and the bogus Burisma position; China and their sudden billion dollar investment in Hunter’s private equity company; the million plus money from a female Russian woman. However due to biden-allies protecting Hunter’s laptop, and the media and intelligence department’s ignoring any evidence and public statements given over to them by Tony Bobulimski, the Biden corruption didn’t make the media splash like if it was Trump or his family involved in the same acts.

    I agree with Dave, though, about the integrity of most politicians.

    Give the Pence investigation some time, Steve, before you start ragging on it! After all it took Biden’s team 2 months to come clean – conveniently after the midterms. Pence’s discovery of docs was this month and reported it in two days!

  • steve Link

    If they knew they had them then that would not be cooperation. If they didnt know they had them but notified the archives once they were found then that is cooperation. its pretty clear that we dont have a real system for handling this stuff when people leave office. We can be a lot better, but you and I think Andy are pretending that we can have a perfect system where no one makes errors. Its paperwork. People will always make paperwork errors. What I think we want is if people find papers later, realizing they erred, to be willing to cooperate and turn them in. If it is realized by the archives/whoever that someone took papers they should not have they should cooperate and send them back.

    Steve

  • steve Link

    jan- So bad numbers under Trump dont count but they do with Biden? I already knew this was the rule for conservatives but nice to see you demonstrate it.

    Steve

  • If they didnt know they had them but notified the archives once they were found then that is cooperation

    If Biden’s lawyers had notified the National Archives when the first classified document was found and the National Archives had then examined the documents in that office to determine their status, that would have been cooperation. What actually happened was damage control.

    its pretty clear that we dont have a real system for handling this stuff when people leave office.

    That is my basic criticism.

    but you and I think Andy are pretending that we can have a perfect system where no one makes errors

    Believe it or not there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousand of processes to reduce and mitigate errors. The present process does none of that.

  • Jan Link

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/01/26/the_real_differences_between_the_biden_and_trump_document_troves_148778.html

    Victor Davis Hansen brings up some good points contrasting the document-withholding controversy between Biden vs Trump.

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