Scientific Mumbo Jumbo

What if 80% of all medical studies were confabulated poppycock? That’s what the work of John Ioannidis and his colleagues suggests:

Ioannidis was shocked at the range and reach of the reversals he was seeing in everyday medical research. “Randomized controlled trials,” which compare how one group responds to a treatment against how an identical group fares without the treatment, had long been considered nearly unshakable evidence, but they, too, ended up being wrong some of the time. “I realized even our gold-standard research had a lot of problems,” he says. Baffled, he started looking for the specific ways in which studies were going wrong. And before long he discovered that the range of errors being committed was astonishing: from what questions researchers posed, to how they set up the studies, to which patients they recruited for the studies, to which measurements they took, to how they analyzed the data, to how they presented their results, to how particular studies came to be published in medical journals.

This array suggested a bigger, underlying dysfunction, and Ioannidis thought he knew what it was. “The studies were biased,” he says. “Sometimes they were overtly biased. Sometimes it was difficult to see the bias, but it was there.” Researchers headed into their studies wanting certain results—and, lo and behold, they were getting them. We think of the scientific process as being objective, rigorous, and even ruthless in separating out what is true from what we merely wish to be true, but in fact it’s easy to manipulate results, even unintentionally or unconsciously. “At every step in the process, there is room to distort results, a way to make a stronger claim or to select what is going to be concluded,” says Ioannidis. “There is an intellectual conflict of interest that pressures researchers to find whatever it is that is most likely to get them funded.”

Perhaps only a minority of researchers were succumbing to this bias, but their distorted findings were having an outsize effect on published research. To get funding and tenured positions, and often merely to stay afloat, researchers have to get their work published in well-regarded journals, where rejection rates can climb above 90 percent. Not surprisingly, the studies that tend to make the grade are those with eye-catching findings. But while coming up with eye-catching theories is relatively easy, getting reality to bear them out is another matter. The great majority collapse under the weight of contradictory data when studied rigorously. Imagine, though, that five different research teams test an interesting theory that’s making the rounds, and four of the groups correctly prove the idea false, while the one less cautious group incorrectly “proves” it true through some combination of error, fluke, and clever selection of data. Guess whose findings your doctor ends up reading about in the journal, and you end up hearing about on the evening news? Researchers can sometimes win attention by refuting a prominent finding, which can help to at least raise doubts about results, but in general it is far more rewarding to add a new insight or exciting-sounding twist to existing research than to retest its basic premises—after all, simply re-proving someone else’s results is unlikely to get you published, and attempting to undermine the work of respected colleagues can have ugly professional repercussions.

Lest anyone think that medical research is unique in this regard the problem appears to be pandemic in the sciences, in everything from physics to economics.

I don’t believe that the solution to this particular problem is to fund more research. Quite the opposite, I think it’s to fund less research. The incentives have got to change.

71 comments… add one
  • Drew Link

    Sounds like global warming research.

  • Ben Wolf Link

    I don’t see this as being of much concern, other than the confusion it creates for laymen. Despite what many believe, peer-review is only a minimal standard to filter out egregious fuck-ups. The true gold standard is reproducibility, which we rarely get in medical research. One or two studies on the benefits of X are meaningless; ten studies are however of significance. It’s much easier to accomplish that in the hard sciences because there aren’t nearly as many variables to contend with and results can be confirmed or counter-indicated much more quickly than large ten or twenty-year studies in medicine.

  • I think the greatest problem in medical research is probably that no one really knows what factors are relevant or irrelevant.

  • Ben Wolf Link

    @Dave Schuler

    100% agreed.

  • This array suggested a bigger, underlying dysfunction, and Ioannidis thought he knew what it was. “The studies were biased,” he says.

    This is why I advocate a Bayesian approach whenever possible. Alot of implicit assumptions become explicit and they become subject to the data since you have to couch these assumptions in terms of probability distributions which in turn are affected by the data. Given enough data the bias is swamped…unless you have a dogmatic prior probability distribution which of course would be quite obvious.

    The big barrier to doing Bayesian research was computational power, that barrier has long been breached. And this fits in with Ben’s position as well. You can use prior research to inform new studies. Also, the attitude of journal editorial boards needs to change as well. If you do a study that is a follow up on a prior study don’t ignore it even if it merely confirms the prior research. Similarly if there is something that shows a negative result for an interesting question that should be considered as well.

    It’s much easier to accomplish that in the hard sciences because there aren’t nearly as many variables to contend with and results can be confirmed or counter-indicated much more quickly than large ten or twenty-year studies in medicine.

    You haven’t looked at the global warming/climate models/papers then have you. :p

  • michael reynolds Link

    And yet we’re supposed to buy into economic theories that are not just potentially lazy or based on faulty assumptions, but corrupted by political wishful thinking to boot.

    Re medical research, every day it’s some other damn thing that’s either going to kill you or save you. I apply the Salk test, as in: Jonas Salk said he had a vaccine for polio, suddenly no one has polio, okay that was real. When people tell me plastic packaging gives you cancer I ask, “Are we seeing a spike in overall deaths? No? Then bullshit.” 100 years ago we saw the introduction of psychotherapy. Did people suddenly stop killing themselves and beating their wives? No? Then it’s bullshit. The great thing about calling bullshit is that you’re bound to be right four out of five times.

  • Drew Link

    “When people tell me plastic packaging gives you cancer I ask, “Are we seeing a spike in overall deaths? No? Then bullshit.” 100 years ago we saw the introduction of psychotherapy. Did people suddenly stop killing themselves and beating their wives? No? Then it’s bullshit. The great thing about calling bullshit is that you’re bound to be right four out of five times.”

    I’m generally very sympathetic to this point of view. But you do realize, Michael, it’s basically a leftist “caring” control your life mentality that has spawned this, plus a willingness to fund any number of supposed cures, regulatory and rent seekers. My view: cut the crap and shut up.

    I think the issue can get more complicated. For example, my primary once quipped to me “it used to be that if a guy had a heart attack at 50 people said, ‘well, yeah, he was 50’. Now it’s ‘what the hell happened?”. Developments in diet practices and in some cases statins or other drugs appears to be real. But yes, as a general proposition the nanny state has run wild. Yet you vote for those guys.

  • Ben Wolf Link

    @Steve Verdon

    All I can say is I spent an entire year teaching myself the basic science underpinning global warming theory, and I’m convinced. Too many independent lines of evidence for me to dismiss it, and too many basic missteps by skeptics for me to ignore. And I started from the “it isn’t happening” camp.

    I think research grants need to be awarded in a much more systematic way, with grants requiring multiple independent teams and a specified number of follow-up reviews and studies. There would be a lot fewer individual grants but the ones made would be much larger in scope .

  • michael reynolds Link

    it’s basically a leftist “caring” control your life mentality

    I think that’s basically true, which is one reason I mourn the death of genuine conservatism and its replacement with conspiracy-mongering, cowardly race-baiting, scientific know-nothingism, sophomoric Rand-worship, self-pity and unapologetic greed. I really wish I had an alternative. Pity.

  • I really wish I had an alternative.

    Yeah, me too. My basic operating principle now is “celebrate the good”. It’s getting increasingly difficult.

  • Drew Link

    “I mourn the death of genuine conservatism and its replacement with conspiracy-mongering, cowardly race-baiting, scientific know-nothingism, sophomoric Rand-worship, self-pity and unapologetic greed”

    You see, Michael, I think that’s a throw away line. I don’t think you do. Let’s start with the current GOP Presidential nominees nd standard bearer. Where is the conspiracy mongering? race baiting? scientific know nothing.? and worship? greed?

    Greed? This man has given huge sums to charity. He has done missionary work. Steel Dynamics and Staples alone have created a huge number of jobs. Race baiting? Who jumped the shark on Travon Martin? Obama or Romney? Who floats rumors about Mormonism? Who plays the race card at every opportunity? scientific know nothing? Which party is out there at every turn telling us how to live our lives based on junk science?

    The left needs to look in the mirror. This is a practice that the Clinton’s mastered to a fine art. Whatever they accused the opposition of, they were doing in spades.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Drew:

    First, the current GOP nominee is the nominee of the GOP. Which is the party of all the things I listed.

    But in addition to that he’s an empty man. Etch-a-Sketch Mitt. Multiple choice Mitt. Schrodinger’s Candidate (in someone’s memorable phrase, not mine.)

    As for his charity, you have no proof of that. Show me his tax returns, then I’ll believe it. Oh, wait, he won’t release them, will he? Wonder why. His dad did.

    My question is rather why you support him? The following is just a wee bit from John McCain’s recently-released (or leaked) oppo document on Romney:

     In 2003, Romney said, “I think the global warming debate is now pretty much over.”
     As governor, Romney was open to “regional cap and trade” system to address global warming – saying “now is the time to take action” – but later pulled Massachusetts out of regional agreement on same day he announced he would not seek reelection.
    ï‚· In 2004, a Romney press event announcing new state policy to combat global warming was marred by his refusal to admit global warming is actually happening.
     As candidate for governor, Romney proposed increasing excise taxes on vehicles with high gas mileage – otherwise known as an “SUV tax.”
    ï‚· Romney has been open to raising the federal gas tax in the past and has not ruled it out in the future.
    ï‚· In 2007 television appearance, Romney refused to rule out a carbon tax or carbon caps if elected president.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Some other bullet points from the McCain oppo on Romney:

    ï‚· State spending increased at well over rate of inflation under Romney’s watch, estimated at 24% – more than $5 billion – over Romney’s final three years.
    ï‚· Under Romney, Massachusetts dramatically underperformed the rest of the nation in terms of job growth.
     2006 report issued by quasi-public Massachusetts Technology Collaborative warned the state was losing its grip as leader in “innovation economy” and that tech job was alarmingly slow.
    ï‚· Romney left his successor to fill a budget deficit exceeding $1 billion.
    ï‚· Romney raised state fees and taxes more than $700 million per year, according to independent experts.
    ï‚· Romney raised fees by roughly $500 million in his first year alone, a figure that was highest in the nation.
    ï‚· Romney quadrupled gun licensing fees and raised fees on first responders, real estate transactions, the blind, golfers and many others.
     Massachusetts’ state and local tax burden rose more than 7% during Romney’s administration.
     Romney refused to endorse the Bush tax cuts in 2003, telling the state’s all-Democrat congressional
    delegation he wouldn’t be a cheerleader for the plan.
     Romney implemented three rounds of tax changes (which he referred to as “closing loopholes”) which
    BuzzFeed
    increased business taxes by an estimated $400 million per year.
     Massachusetts’ corporate tax climate now ranks 47th in the nation, according to the Tax Foundation.

  • Icepick Link

    By the way, the “renaming” politicians has got to be the weakest form of political commentary. That’s true whether it’s calling Mr. Obama “Barry” or calling Mr. Romney “Willard.” It’s a big flashing neon sign that says, “I got nothin’.”

    vs.

    Etch-a-Sketch Mitt. Multiple choice Mitt. Schrodinger’s Candidate

    So calling someone Barry or Willard is right out, but other forms of name calling are IN. As is having the President of the United States sending out his minions to threaten his opposition with federal prison time on trumped up charges. Barry Half-White is making this look more and more like some of those fun countries he liked to visit in his youth.

  • michael reynolds Link

    That is a fair gotcha. I confess.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Should have included link to the McCain oppo document:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/78582788/McCain-2008-Oppo-File

    Much more fun stuff there. Interesting coincidence that Romney has stiffed Palin on a convention slot and then this shows up. There’s your conspiracy theory, for you.

  • steve Link

    1) Ioannidis does not get published if he finds studies are good.

    2) Funding is a problem. Clinical studies are more likely to be funded by drug companies or device makers. It pays very well, and you dont have to take call. Competition for funding is quite competitive, with most going to established centers. There is strong pressure to publish.

    However, almost no one is willing to fund repeat studies. It is also difficult to get studies published that show no or negative effects for a therapy. I think the only way you get around this is to have public funding for repeat studies. Not sure how you get journals to publish studies showing that drugs did not work.

    Large studies, and long studies are very expensive. I think a lot of this could be overcome with universal records and reporting, but we in the US think that is socialism. Every time I get some old, confused patient who has a pacer/AICD in their chest (they never know what they have), I have to go through a list of 4 device makers to find out what they have and what regimen to follow. God forbid we require device makers to have a single site we can call. The only reason we know metal on metal artificial joints have problems is because they have universal reporting in the US and New Zealand.

    3) Most older docs are skeptical about literature when it first comes out. It is difficult to resist as the drug reps are always good looking and the device reps are very helpful. Fortunately, as the article notes, most faulty research is in areas that arent really affect life and death decisions.

    Steve

  • Icepick Link

    But why does Reynolds support Obama? We have had the worst job recovery since they started keeping good records after WWII. There’s not even a close second. Most of the jobs created have been worse than the jobs lost. Obama says that this is the right track for the country and that he wants more of this kind of economic performance.

    Food stamp usage has skyrocketed DURING THE OBAMA RECOVERY. Forget what happened during the recession, food stamp usage has continued to rise and Obama and the Administration want more of that. They fucking ADVERTIZE for more people to join the program.

    SSDI claims have soared. This is because a lot of people are desperate and looking for any kind of income they can get, so they’re cheating. But Obama seems to think this is a sign of things going in the right direction too.

    Obama also wants more people on welfare, as evidenced by his gutting Clinton’s welfare reform last week. (When did Congress abrogate its responsibility to legislate and to hold the Executive branch accountable to enforce the laws of the land?) This goes with Obama’s unilateral gutting of immigration laws a few weeks ago.

    Obama sends out his minions to brag about his weekly meetings when he decides who lives and who dies – this includes having Americans assassinated, BTW. Strange for a President to brag about being a sociopathic killer – stranger still that so-called liberals celebrate him for this. I imagine that has to do with his Administration calling anyone that loves liberty a terror suspect a couple of weeks ago. That means Obama can have any Republican, Libertarian or independent assassinated now unless they claim they hate liberty. Reynolds doesn’t have any outrage over that, which is telling.

    In 2008, Obama claimed that he wanted to put coal powered electrical generation out of business, and that he wanted much more expensive gasoline. He has done everything possible to close down oil production in the country. Electricity prices are going up thanks to EPA regs pushed through by this Admin. Conveniently, those prices don’t start going up until after his reelection. Meanwhile, he has funneled billions of dollars to campaign contributors whose business models can only work if energy costs cripple the economy. (And if the government keeps funneling billions of dollars to them. They’re like bankers – I guess the ‘green’ in green energy is for all the greenbacks needed to keep it afloat.) This kind of blatant corruption doesn’t trouble Reynolds or other Democrats at all, in fact they celebrate the corruption because they and their team are raking it in.

    But they want to know how Romney has spent every last penny he ever acquired – and he better not have spent any of it outside the country. Meanwhile, Obama cronies have lots of money offshore, and no one gives a shit. (Drudge had a running feature up on this a week ago – everyone from Valery Jarrett on down is pulling shady crap overseas – but that doesn’t matter because Democrats love corruption, just so long as all of it is lining their pockets. When was the last time you heard Reynolds complain about a Democrat doing something shady?)

    Obama wants full disclosure of everything Romney ever did – but he won’t release his own records, and he won’t give Congress government records that Congress has a duly established right to see. Transparency is for everyone else – the favored class can do as they please.

    Obama’s people made a big deal about polygamy in Romney’s family tree, stuff that happened long before Mitt was born. Don’t bother mentioning that Obama’s father was a bigamist. Say anything about that and you’re a racist.

    Obama’s Administration has funneled guns to drug dealers that have led to the deaths of hundreds of Mexicans and at least on US government agent. (Why are we surprised that a man that brags about how much dope he smoked and cocaine he snorted is supporting drug dealers now? How about using US government funds to funnel illegal weapons to drug dealers to be used in a murderous campaign of slaughter? That’s more of a felony than confusing paperwork filings with the SEC. Reynolds doesn’t mind that Obama is supporting the war on Mexico’s peasants, though. That isn’t a scandal, at all. Death squads are only bad if they can somehow be linked to Republicans. No amount of death, destruction and corruption is too much as long as the perpetrators have (D)s behind their names.) This is a sign of his competence, of course, as is the fact that he continually misses budget deadlines (he’s missing one right now) and cannot and will not work to get an actual budget passed through Congress. This isn’t a Republican obstructionism thing (as Michael will no doubt claim), as they didn’t do it when the Dems controlled all of Congress either.

    Obama’s minions have tried to make a big deal out of a massacre Mormons perpetrated – over 150 years ago. You see, this shows that Mormons and their religion are evil and can’t be trusted. Never mind that Obama sat in a black liberation church for 20 years and heard regular sermons about how evil America is and how it should be damned by God to Hell – you can’t mention that either or the lunatics like Reynolds will call you a racist.

    So, we have a lawless, corrupt administration which favors assassination of its enemies (and classifies everyone that isn’t a Democrat as an enemy, and even some of them – we’re looking at you Mayor of Newark), wants to destroy the economy through higher energy costs, wants people jobless, broke and dependent, wants to loot the public coffers (or rather the public printing presses) to give money to its political donors, wants to live the high-life while the nation rots, and THIS is what Reynolds thinks is a successful Administration. Outstanding, truly outstanding.

    Against this, he has that Romney left a billion dollar annual budget deficit when he left office. Obama runs up a deficit about three times that amount every twenty-four hours, and that is the best thing in the history of the goddamned universe.

    I’m clear that I think Romney is going to suck if he wins. I’m not voting for him, as I refuse to reward the Republicans for sucking a little less ass than the Democrats. But the idea that Obama is anything other than a catastrophe is sickening. Even Obama knows he has been a complete failure for the country, or he would be running on something other than the fact that Romney once made money in the business community. (Of course, Obama is happy that the country is failing, as long as he and his get theirs – its the Chicago way!) The only thing he runs on right now is that Romney knows how to make money. That’s his whole campaign, that Romney has been successful at something! And that that’s a bad thing! Holy batshit, slappy! Why not brag about all the millions of people you’ve put on food stamps, Choombama? Why not brag about the fact that the only reason the UE-3 rate is under 11 percent is because you’re claiming that millions and millions of people have become so desperate that they’ve just given up all hope of ever working again, Mr. Soetero? Why not state that if re-elected you promise to assassinate more of your countrymen with no sort of review process, Hussien? Forward!

    What a fucking disaster. But hey, at least we have friendly governments in places like Timbuktu and Egypt! They LOVE us in Egypt! Monica! Monica!

  • Icepick Link

    On the actual topic of the post: Only trust a doctor if you’ve got no other choice. An MD is better than a Voodoo priestess or witchdoctor, but only because some of their chemicals are better and some of them can actually set a broken bone. Hell, most of their really cool tools came from the work of physicists, mathematicians and chemists.

    As to one of steve’s point: I’m supposed to not trust* Ioannidis’s results because he won’t get published unless the results are just so, but I AM supposed to trust the results of every other research quack whose results will only get published if the results are just so?

    It is difficult to resist as the drug reps are always good looking and the device reps are very helpful.

    As I said above, trust them slightly more than your local witchdoctor – maybe less if you’ve got a good family witchdoctor you’ve known for years. MDs don’t do hexes, for example….

    Fortunately, as the article notes, most faulty research is in areas that arent really affect life and death decisions.

    Yeah, that MOST in there is really reassuring….

    * Split those infinitives, baby!

  • michael reynolds Link

    Tell you a little secret Icepick: despite all the to-ing and fro-ing about jobs and the economy, and despite the fact that it’s certainly fun to tweak Mr. Romney by pointing out that under him Massachusetts had a terrible record of “job creation,” I don’t actually think politicians, let alone presidents, have much to do with jobs or the broader economy. I’m a capitalist, not a communist.

    Further, I don’t think we actually know how the hell jobs get “created.” I think the so-called science of economics is 90% nonsense except insofar as it looks in the rear-view mirror, and even then. I think we have almost no capacity to influence where the economy goes. I think economics should probably be considered a sub-discipline within anthropology or maybe psychology. Maybe in 50 years they’ll know enough to have better than a dice-roll chance of getting things right, but not yet.

    I vote on social issues, safety net and foreign policy. So I think this election is mostly a lot of bullshit. “It’s the economy, stupid?” Please. We’re debating tiny differences in marginal tax rates and minuscule differences in regulation. The “economy” which, by the way, is itself a simplistic, bullshit construct, is not flowing this way or that because we raise taxes 3% on rich people or have a slightly easier regulatory regime for fracking.

    Romney is anti-choice (at the moment) and anti-gay (when last we checked) and he’s even further up Benjamin Netanhayu’s ass than Mr. Obama, and even more a tool of Goldman-Sachs, and he’s learned even less from our neo-con days of fun. They created essentially identical health care reforms, both of which I suspect are silly, but which establish a single principle that I like and Mr. Romney (when last we checked) now opposes: health care as a right.

    So, there you go. I’m pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-religious, pro safety net, generally a hawk but not willing to take orders from Likud. So I’m voting for Obama. Because I only have the two choices, a fact you don’t like to acknowledge. All your “The emperor has no clothes!” ranting doesn’t affect me in the least because I’m not your imaginary straw man. I kind of guessed about the whole no clothing thing.

    I don’t care if Romney has 20 million jobs he can pull out of a hat, I’m simply not ever, ever, ever going to vote for someone from a party that still race-baits and gay-bashes and immigrant-bashes and attacks science and wants to arrest women for getting an abortion.

  • Drew Link

    C’mon, Michael. You are confusing a political campaign with reality.

    Do your own homework on Romneys charitable activities. If you won’t, you’ve told me something about yourself. If you do, you got some splin’n to do Lucy, because it makes the Bidens, Gores etc of the world look like the hypocrites they are.

    Everyone is charitable………….with other peoples money.

  • Andy Link

    I thought this looked familiar – I guess this is a republish of a 2010 article.

    Here’s another from earlier this year about the non reproducibility of research:

    http://bit.ly/HmIDfC

  • michael reynolds Link

    Drew: I don’t consider giving money to your own church so they can send missionaries like young Mitt Romney to Paris to teach Frenchmen the evils of coffee, cigarettes and wine, to be charity.

    By the way, I also don’t consider it charity to give to symphony orchestras and other excuses for rich women (left or right) to buy dresses and play the society maven.

    Do you have some links on Romney’s non-church charitable giving other than his one year of tax returns? I’d be interested. Maybe you’re right and he’s a swell guy. But without knowing what he made and what he gave we don’t really know that, do we?

    In fact, I have a brand-new conspiracy theory on Romney’s taxes. Here it is: He’s hiding how much he made from the Mormon church. He owes them 10%, and as a church official he’s undoubtedly been involved in muscling other members for money over the years. So what if he’d been lying to his own church?

    Yeah: no shred of evidence. But it’s the kind of thing that evil minds will contemplate when denied the facts.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Ah, found a link: http://www.businessinsider.com/mitt-romney-charitable-donations-2012-7

    Of 22 million income he gave 3 million to charity, or roughly 13%.

    Of that 3 million, 60% was to the Mormon church in one way or another. The second biggest item – 100 grand — was to the George W. Bush library. Not really a charity. Smaller amounts to Harvard Business School and the equestrian team. Again. . .

    And then we finally get down to actual charitable donations to actual worthy causes, like returning soldiers, various diseases, etc…

    When you take out the Mormon logrolling and the political logrolling it looks like arguably 300 grand, which would be about 1.5% of his income.

    I take it back, he’s a saint. That must have really hurt. And that’s when he knows he’s being watched. Now let’s see the other tax returns.

  • jan Link

    Liberals trade barbs, cut and paste one-liners from an internet site, and then stand on their soap box of supposedly presiding on the truth. It’s tiresome.

    Here is just one link enlarging on :Mitt Romney’s climate change policies. Most involve common sense, an open-mindedness to environment concerns, and voluntary compliance. There were no overbearing regulations, no hammer on business.

    There are other informational sources which deal with the UE number in MA, going from 5.6 to 4.7 during Romney’s time in office. Working with an 85% democratic legislature, only a 12% republican registration in the state, Romney walked a fine line of implementing what fiscal guidelines he could in a very liberal state. He did manage to balance budgets, and, in lieu of not raising taxes, did raise fees and so on. If MA were a conservative state than his term as governor could be criticized more. But, as it stands, I think he did about as much as anyone could do given the liberal obstacles standing in his way. Just look at Obama and how inept and impotent he is with only one half of Congress in the hands of the opposition for one half of his term in office. Otherwise, Obama has had a clear shot at having everything in democratic hands…and still he whines about obstructive forces or Bush!

    Is Romney a perfect guy? No.

    Does he have more private sector/business experience, is he more honest, has he done more than Obama? IMO, the answer is a resounding, “YES.”

    Personally speaking, the more this campaign season proceeds the more my respect for Obama erodes.

  • steve Link

    What was interesting from the recent Bloomberg article, is that the Mormon church uses very little of its funds for humanitarian charities. They spend on the Mormon church and on Mormons. Having been brought up severely Baptist, I am always dubious about “charity” that goes to the church, especially when they are not transparent about how they handle the money.

    Query-Does anyone know if Staples actually created jobs? Did it destroy more than it created by putting a lot of smaller stores out of business?

    Steve

  • jan Link

    BTW Icepick

    A very detailed comparison/contrast about our current POTUS. Obama is pro-everything (gay, choice, big government), everything but pro-American, IMO.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Jan:

    Here, you go, just for you, straight from that barb-trading liberal John McCain:

    “State And Local Tax Burden Increased By Over 7% While Romney Was Governor. According to the Tax Foundation, Massachusetts’ state and local tax burden was 9.8% in 2002 – the year before Romney took office – and rose to 10.5% in 2006, an increase of 7.1%. (Tax Foundation Website, http:/www.taxfoundation.org, Accessed 4/6/07)”

    “Recent Study Found Massachusetts’ Corporate Tax Climate Ranks 47th In The Nation. In the Tax Foundation’s rankings of state-by-state business tax climates for 2007, only three states in the entire country were found to have a worse corporate tax climate than Massachusetts. (Tax Foundation Website, http://www.taxfoundation.org, Accessed 6/15/07)”

  • michael reynolds Link

    Jan:

    Obama is pro-everything (gay, choice, big government), everything but pro-American, IMO.

    Of course Romney was also pro-gay, pro-choice and pro big government, you know, back before he decided he needed your vote. Go ahead, deny it. I have all the quotes.

  • sam Link

    “everything but pro-American, IMO.”

    That’s why nobody, except maybe Drew after a few drinks, takes you at all seriously.

  • jan Link

    Sam

    As I am not a social progressive, like you and Michael, we have very little in common, relative to political beliefs or even individual values/responsibilities/accountability.

  • Icepick Link

    And I forgot, the Obama Administration isn’t only waging war on Mexican peasants, they’re also tanking our relationship with Canada. Since Obama is a genius, he must be doing this on purpose.

    I don’t actually think politicians, let alone presidents, have much to do with jobs or the broader economy.

    Right, Lenin had nothing to do with the economy of the Soviet Union at all. Politicians have NO effect whatsoever on the economy ever, except when it is a Republican and you want to blame them for being the most evil, job-destroying people in the history of the Universe.

    More locally, in time and space, politicians policy choices DO matter. They matter at the monetary level and the fiscal level. They matter most especially at the regulatory level. Obama has made a POINT of shutting down thousands of potential jobs from building a pipeline all the way to distant Canada – a policy supported by pretty much everyone that isn’t a Democrat or someone in the Green Energy scam sucking from the teat of government. By killing that one Obama is pushing Canada towards China as an economic ally. Great work. In one fell swoop Obama manages to stop jobs from being created, drive up energy costs to damage the economy further, push away our closest and most natural ally, AND make things better for the green companies that he is corruptly supporting in the most blatant manner possible.

    That matters for job creation in a negative way. Obama’s Administration has enacted countless regulatory hurdles with the sole intent of destroying the economy. He made it quite clear last Friday that he hates business and businessmen. At least he hates the ones that aren’t paying him off and making their money through government largesse. No wonder he doesn’t think anyone has anything to do with their own success – the only businesses he knows that do well, from GM and Wall Street to “green energy” firms to Tony Rezko, only do well because they are involved in crooked business deals with him. He is a man so purely corrupt (and drug-addled from all the coke and weed) that he believes success is only possible in life if someone is on the take from the government. Great role model ya got there.

  • sam Link

    “Obama has made a POINT of shutting down thousands of potential jobs from building a pipeline all the way to distant Canada – a policy supported by pretty much everyone that isn’t a Democrat or someone in the Green Energy scam sucking from the teat of government. ”

    You are aware, I trust, that much of the land for that pipeline will be probably be taken by eminent domain? See, An Old Texas Tale Retold: the Farmer vs. the Oil Company and Keystone and Kelo.

    Now, like Mark, I’m sorta agnostic on the pipeline, but

    “When you allow a pipeline to cross your land, you give up certain rights to it,” Ms. Crawford said. “You can’t use your land the way you want anymore. We didn’t want to do that.”

    But TransCanada did not go away. Their people kept coming back, offering more and more money.

    Then on Aug. 26, 2011, Ms. Crawford received a letter from Keystone, TransCanada’s American subsidiary. The letter made a “final offer” of $21,626. Then, it said, “if Keystone is unable to successfully negotiate the voluntary acquisition of the necessary easements, it will have to resort to the exercise of its statutory right of eminent domain. [from the Times story, my emphasis]”

    “In other words,” Ms. Crawford said, “sign or we’ll take it.”

    But I can’t think that’s both good and fair. How about you?

  • jan Link

    “Obama’s Administration has enacted countless regulatory hurdles with the sole intent of destroying the economy. “

    This segways into that comment:

    Obama tosses US economic recovery under the bus

  • Icepick Link

    Charity only counts if it goes to approved causes, such as funding abortions for the children of people Michael doesn’t like. All other charities don’t count.

    Yeah, and the fact that he gave the money away doesn’t count for anything, Romney is still greedy and grasping unless he gives the money to help the needy – like the DNC.

    By the way, I also don’t consider it charity to give to symphony orchestras and other excuses for rich women (left or right) to buy dresses and play the society maven.

    But Mikey loves living in places where the spend lots of money on things like that. You’ll note he hasn’t moved to Port-au-Prince despite their low cultural level or the fact that he loves Third Worlders so much he wants them all to move to the US. But only the parts he doesn’t live in – unless they’re Mexican and work strictly as the help. I’d love to see Reynolds move his family to Little Haiti in Miami or even to Pine Hills here in Orlando. I’m sure he would LOVE having his children play with the little Haitian kids when they go looking to kill all the neighborhood cats with pipes. Dealing with the effects of immigration is for the little people.

  • Icepick Link

    How about you?

    By that argument nothing big can ever be done. Yes, it isn’t exactly fair. It also isn’t exactly fair for a few people to stop everything dead in its tracks.

    The person in question was given several opportunities to negotiate a settlement. They didn’t get what they wanted. Now it will go to the courts. Restitution will be made, though maybe not what they wanted, it is something.

    Eminent domain sucks, but it is one of those issues where competing interests have to be weighed and settled.

  • sam Link

    “The person in question was given several opportunities to negotiate a settlement. They didn’t get what they wanted.”

    That’s not correct. What she doesn’t want is the pipeline going across her land, full stop. It’s not that she was holding out for more money — she doesn’t want any money. She doesn’t want the pipeline.

    “By that argument nothing big can ever be done. Yes, it isn’t exactly fair. It also isn’t exactly fair for a few people to stop everything dead in its tracks.”

    So, in other words, you are prepared to sacrifice the principle of private property if it’s for the greater good. I do hope you see the utilitarian undergirdings of that argument. Now, I ask you: What are the limits of utilitarianism? In the area of economic policy what cannot be justified by recourse to utilitarianism?

  • Michael Reynolds Link

    Ice:

    I’m sure Mr. Romney would be touched by your defense of his sainthood. The rest of your ‘response’ is just so much random scat-flinging nonsense.

  • Icepick Link

    Yes, Michael, unlike your principled response of calling Republicans Fascists who want to overthrow the government and complaining that anyone that doesn’t worship Obama’s black ass is a racist.

    But hey, I guess you got nothing about Obama’s shipping guns to drug dealers in Mexico, the damage he has done to US-Canada relations, his shuffling money to campaign contributors while simultaneously using the full weight of the government to hurt the competitors of those some contributors, his threatening his opponents with jail, his communist flavored statements about business owners not having ANYTHING to do with their own success (which incidentally means that you didn’t do a damned thing either, so give all your money away and move back under an over-pass, faker), his complete inability to get a budget passed, his having the exact same stance on gay marriage that Republicans have had up until a few weeks ago, et cetera, et cetera. Everything Obama does is good, and NOTHING he does is ever wrong. EVERYTHING any non-Democrat does is evil.

    As for Romney, I don’t care for him. But I am not going to accuse him of a lack of generosity because he isn’t giving to the causes I believe in.(And what have Barry O and STFU Joey been doing with their wealth? How charitable have THEY been?)

  • sam Link

    ” his communist flavored statements about business owners not having ANYTHING to do with their own success”

    Of course, that too is incorrect.

    Transcript:

    Look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own….If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. [Etc. etc.]

    ….Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business—you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    It’s clear he was talking about the building of roads and bridges, ie, infrastructure that we all depend on.

  • steve Link

    The firm hired by the pipeline company claimed thousands of jobs. An independent group out of Cornell found that the pipeline would produce jobs in the mid-hundreds.

    “everything but pro-American, IMO.”

    I really dont know why people say things like this. At least why bright people say it.

    Steve

  • Icepick Link

    So, in other words, you are prepared to sacrifice the principle of private property if it’s for the greater good.

    Do you think private property is completely inviolate? Does that mean I can turn the lot my house sits on into a chemical dump? I guess that most be okay with you then. I think I’ll take radioactive waste from around the world too. I’ll make a killing!

    Also, Orange County (FL) announced recently that they were going to extend John Young Parkway to connect it with Forrest City Road, to create another continuous north-south artery through town. (It’s not the brightest idea, IMO, but it’s what they’re doing.) They’re plowing a large number of homes under and cutting at least one neighborhood in two to do it. You think that was all done with permission of everyone that owned property in that area?

    Here’s another example from the local (Orlando, Florida) news. Those evil Mormons own a huge tract of land in Central Florida known as Deseret Ranch. (At around 300,000 acres it’s over ten times the size of Disney World.) They’ve been developing it in bits and pieces through the years. In the last few years they have wanted to develop another chunk of it for residential and commercial purposes to take advantage of all the money various governments are pouring into a medical center & other ventures on the SE and E sides of Orlando. The local government keeps stopping them from doing it. (Personally I think this is also a bad idea, but those evil fucking Mormons that the Dems hate (at least they do unless it’s Harry Reid) have a much better track record at business than I do, so I’m almost certainly wrong.) The development would conform to all local, state and federal environmental standards, and it would meet every other standard available. It is being stopped because (a) they haven’t paid off enough of the relevant board (there has been corruption on these local boards in the recent past so Michael can stuff his poo-flinging observations) and (b) some people that live in a nearby area don’t want the development done because they don’t want the character of THEIR neighborhood altered. In order to fight this, they have repeatedly claimed they have Florida Panthers (endangered and protected) living nearby, but these claims have been shown to be false repeatedly. (They are trying to pass off bobcats as Florida panthers – fail.)

    So, the government is keeping the owners of that property from doing what they want with it. Is that a violation of their property rights? Of if the Latter Day Sinners get their way, are THEY violating the property rights of the other land owners who want to keep living out in the middle of nowhere? And the government is taking a big hand in this either way.

    Please tell me what the easy moral solution is to this problem of property rights, Sam.

    My point? This kind of stuff goes on all the time, and has since near the founding of the nation. (Probably before that.) It sucks for those losing their property, but it is an old practice. The government can’t take your property without due process, but they can take it.

  • Icepick Link

    An independent group out of Cornell found that the pipeline would produce jobs in the mid-hundreds.

    Cheaper energy will help the economy more than the jobs created building the pipeline. So, why do you want everyone else to pay more for energy while the government subsidizes your industry to a huge degree, steve?

  • michael reynolds Link

    Ice:

    Have you failed to notice that your bile-based nonsense never holds up under cross-examination? It’s making you boring.

  • Icepick Link

    Obama also said that no one succeeded because they were smart or worked hard. He gave them no credit for that. What does that leave? Does he give anyone credit for their own success, even a little bit? Romney is only rich because he (and his ancestors) stole from the American people, according to the like of Barry and his goons like Reynolds. They even want to throw him in jail for it. Obama can’t even acknowledge that his opponent might have done one thing in his life to deserve his station.

    But then this makes sense. Obama snorted, smoked and puked all over the help on his way to the White House, while cutting deals with crooks like Tony Rezko. With his experience only the crooks get ahead, such as himself, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko, Eric Holder (payoffs for pardons, gunrunning for Mexican mobsters, coordinated voter intimidation with the Black Panthers), Timmay Geithner (tax cheat and responsible for turning his head the other way while the barons of Wall Street raped the world economy), Joe Biden (the corrupt lobbying deals set up with his son & various financial firms that stood to benefit from Joey’s power in the Senate) and on and on.

    Yeah, Republicans are the only evil people around. You Dems are all saints.

  • sam Link

    “Obama also said that no one succeeded because they were smart or worked hard. He gave them no credit for that.”

    It’s hard to take you seriously when you throw things like that out without a cite. Where did he say that?

    I know he said this:

    My grandparents served during World War II. He was a soldier in Patton’s Army; she was a worker on a bomber assembly line. And together, they shared the optimism of a nation that triumphed over the Great Depression and over fascism. They believed in an America where hard work paid off, and responsibility was rewarded, and anyone could make it if they tried — no matter who you were, no matter where you came from, no matter how you started out.

    And these values gave rise to the largest middle class and the strongest economy that the world has ever known. It was here in America that the most productive workers, the most innovative companies turned out the best products on Earth. And you know what? Every American shared in that pride and in that success — from those in the executive suites to those in middle management to those on the factory floor. So you could have some confidence that if you gave it your all, you’d take enough home to raise your family and send your kids to school and have your health care covered, put a little away for retirement. [Source]

    Here’s an observation, born out of the bitterest of bitter experience, from someone a considerable number of years older than you: Anger is the most corrosive and debilitating of emotions. And festering anger is absolutely soul-killing. Your mind becomes filled with the pus of that anger and your judgment is enslaved to it. Everything in your life becomes warped around that single driving animus. There’s no peace in that place, none at all. It is truly the sickness unto death.

  • Icepick Link

    Reynolds, who has been claiming that US-Canada relations have been damaged under this Presidency? Go look that up and get back to me. (The answer is: former AND current members of the Canadian government.)

    Obama’s Administration put in a gun-running program whose only beneficiaries have been Mexican mobsters. That isn’t in dispute. You will now claim that the Bush Administration did the same thing. Correct, until you look at the details. The earlier program that the Bush Admin did (which was dumber than rocks) involved selling guns WITH TRACKING DEVICES to gun-runners, and also involved the Mexican government working their side of the border. When it was determined that the gun-runners were disabling the tracking devices, the program was stopped. Barry, OTOH, had his Administration run the same fucking program, but with no efforts at all to track the guns, and without the involvement of the Mexican government. (And they are pretty pissed about that, too.) As Congress has tried to unravel the details, the Administration has evoked executive privilege in a very ham-fisted manner. That holds up, because that’s the story.

    Obama hasn’t gotten a budget passed in years. His Administration also fails to meet other deadlines concerning budgetary reporting to Congress. (They just missed a mid-year deadline.) This era of failure to create budgets pre-dates the Republican takeover of the House leadership. This stalemate is entirely of the Democrats and Presidents design. Those are the facts.

    Obama has been holding up the process on the pipeline to Canada. That is a fact. Why is he doing it? While one can’t necessarily state with 100% absolute certainty what his motivation is, one can look at the record. And the record is that Obama and his Energy Secretary have both (prior to their current jobs) been in favor of much higher energy costs. Obama’s Administration has also given large sums of money to private companies that specialize in ‘alternative’ energy (alternative to what? cheap and reliable, apparently) whose owners gave Barry campaign contributions. The only way those companies can succeed is with high energy costs and with large government contributions. (Actually, they can’t even succeed then, as evidenced by the failures. Go look at the details of some of those failures and the whole think looks as crooked as some Goldman Sachs deal.) That’s all out there in the public record. (As for imputing Obama’s rationale, see his earlier dealings with Tony Rezko. Pay for Play is in his playbook.)

    Obama has sent out his minions to publicize his weekly meetings where he decides who should be killed. That is a fact. My characterization of the man as a sociopath is an opinion. But bragging about having people assassinated is generally considered at least a minor character flaw.

    Congress, in its bipartisan ineptness, passed a law giving the President carte blanche to indefinitely detain or kill Americans he deems to be terror suspects. Obama signed that law. That’s in the public record. (Glen Greenwald may still be outraged about that – almost certainly is. He at least is consistent.) Obama’s HS Secretary recently determined that people with various political views on personal liberty were potential terror suspects. That is in the record.

    Obama had the government of Libya toppled without a plan in place (or troops in place) to secure the country. Accounts of how that has gone have varied. But there has been a lot of bad blowback on that front, from the treatment of sub-Saharan Africans in Libya to the fiasco in Mali and Timbuktu. Just because American troops aren’t on the ground doesn’t make this something other than careless, inept foreign adventurism. And just because the American press mostly gives him a pass doesn’t mean he should get one.

    Hmmm, lets see. Obama’s SecTreas is a tax cheat. Yep, that holds up. (The damning thing there was when Geithner didn’t correct his earlier tax returns that he knew were wrong until he got caught PUBLICLY.)

    Joe Biden has a son that has taken significant sums of money from lobbyists for companies that have been favorably treated by STFU Joey. That holds up. (Go look up the bankruptcy reform stuff from several years ago.)

    Did Holder get paid for the pardons he slipped onto Clinton’s desk? I can’t prove it, but I doubt that he did anything for free. And Holder sure as Hell gave the Black Panthers a slap on the wrist with a wet noodle for obvious and blatant voter intimidation.

    Obama had his minions go out last week and accuse Romney of being a felon. Period, that’s what happened. In other words, Obama is threatening his opponents with prison time in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison. Now, how much more Third World do you want to see the country get? (Apparently a lot, as you want several hundreds of millions of Third World peasants to move to the country.)

    Obama has recently, through executive order, substantially altered both immigration law enforcement and welfare policy enforcement. He has effectively circumvented Congress and has stated publicly that he will not obey the laws as written. That’s all in the public record, in fact Dems have been all in favor of these efforts. I don’t hesitate to wonder what you reaction would be if a Republican President did that with laws you do like – you would scream bloody murder, and folks in the Leftist media would be calling for said President to be assassinated. Don’t tell me you wouldn’t, because you guys already did that with Bush 43.

    Obama has been opposed to gay marriage until just recently. That is a fact. The speculation at the time was that Obama needed a boost in fund-raising in Hollywood and NYC. The last sentence is just speculation, but was widely reported at the time by members of the press favorably disposed towards the President. And his fund-raising in Hollywood did jump afterwards. But Barry O did oppose gay marriage until his own financial needs became so great that he needed to switch positions. That is in the record too.

    Oh, and please tell me how my reporting of the unemployment situation has been off. Mostly I am reporting BLS numbers matched against other BLS numbers. I am also pointing out that the BLS doesn’t count a lot of people who they claim have given up. I also mention that people are going onto the disability roles at an alarming rate. In fact, last month more people went on disability than got new jobs (on net). Those are facts. It is also a fact that food stamp usage has soared in the last three years, during the recovery that Obama used to tout as a success. That the roles are growing DURING THE RECOVERY is a fact. Go look up the numbers yourself if you don’t believe me. (And obviously you don’t, which makes you an ignorant, or you do, which makes you a lying cretin for saying my claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.)

    I haven’t mentioned median incomes in a while, but those also continued to go south even during the recovery. Yet Obama claims he is growing the middle class. That claim is laughable in its dishonesty. You can look that up for yourself too, although I am sure you won’t do it, and wouldn’t understand the data if you did.

  • Icepick Link

    It’s hard to take you seriously when you throw things like that out without a cite. Where did he say that?

    And it is hard to take you seriously when you don’t even read the stuff you cut and paste into posts. Sam, if you had read or listened to the speech you snipped, you’d know where the quote came from:

    [L]ook, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something – there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

    That’s from ABC News’s reporting of the speech. Pay attention instead of just grabbing something off of some site that confirms your suspicions and biases, you incompetent dumbass. So, next time you go doubting me and implying that I am a liar, shit-for-brains, try actually looking something up on your own.

  • michael reynolds Link

    Ice:

    You’re quite literally talking to yourself now. I’ve never said anything about Canada. I don’t care about Canada.

    You don’t have beliefs, Ice, or ideas, or concepts, or insights, you just have bile. For all that I disagree with him, Drew has things he actually believes in. So do I, as cynical as I am, so does Dave obviously, and Sam and Ben. You don’t. You just have anger.

    And there’s something about your rage that is as entitled as Drew’s richie-rich harumphing. You’re furious that you’re being screwed by life, and at the same time you have no compassion for anyone else in a similar situation. You rant about food stamps as if those people are somehow different than you. They deserve it, whereas you, why, you should be riding high. Because you’re special.

    Mostly I suspect you have clinical depression. You’re too smart to be this scattered, narcissistic and enraged. You’re just unloading bile day after day. You’re not the only unemployed guy in the country, they don’t all turn into rage-o-holics. What’s your end game with this? Are you trying to convince people you’re smart? Everyone here gets that you’re highly intelligent, so that’s covered. But how do you think this gets better for you? Is this your next 30 years, yelling at people you don’t even know or really care about, just for the sake of yelling?

  • sam Link

    As I said, the sickness unto death.

  • Icepick Link

    Sam, I am tired of being lied to and lied about. I am especially tired of having someone like you shit on me and call me a liar (by implication, not even having the guts to state what you mean clearly in a fucking anonymous forum, you sniveling coward) in one sentence and then tell me I should just smile and be happy about it in the next.

    There are two ways to be free of bonds in this country: to be independently wealthy and to be independently poor. Through luck and fortune I am now independently poor. I am not willing to let the bullshit get so high that it blocks out the late morning sun without at least saying “Stop piling up that bullshit and blocking out the sun!”

    Republicans pulled a lot of crap in their run in power in the early part of this millennium. They were crooked and cynical and stupid, and for their sins some of the lesser lights of the party were kicked out of office. But not the leaders (other than Bush, who was term-limited out) and so they deserve no forgiveness.

    That put the Democrats in charge. They have been even worse than the Republicans, which was a low bar to get under.

    Most of those that see the Democratic corruption and incompetence for what it is are completely unwilling to do the same for their party of choice. I am not one of them. The tea partiers can delude themselves that they are voting for the good guys all they want. But it ain’t so.

    But the idea that the Democrats are anything but worse is revolting. It is to the point now where Reynolds is even disavowing any kind of knowledge in economics in order to forgive total ineptness. (Clue for the clueless, the micro- stuff is pretty good.) And now you are passing off this shit that the President didn’t say what he said the other day, as though I can’ t look up a citation. The tea partiers are delusional now, but you Democratic apparatchiks are just revoltingly incompetent at this point. Did you actually not follow Obama’s speech, or did you just assume I would be cowed by your language and wouldn’t look it up? Or were you just so lazy that you didn’t bother reading or listening to it yourself?

    No, someone tries to pull this crap, they deserve contempt, not approbation. The idea that everyone should just lie there and enjoy it? Riiiiiggghhhhtttt. I am sure Barry Half-White would love that, as would Reynolds.

    Even more pernicious is the idea that if someone is offended about something it dominates their life. Hardly so. This is a forum that discusses public policy, and perforce discussions of those who initiate and oversee those policies. Schuler occasionally comments about dog racing, or his kitchen remodeling, or cooking, or what have you. Other than those about movies and/or TV you won’t find me commenting on those, because that’s not why I read this site. You will find me on posts about public policy. And here there is everything to be outraged about. To NOT be outraged, or to meekly accept things, is wrong.

    But that doesn’t actually rule my whole life. I am getting a break right now because my daughter is taking a very long nap, and because of a minor health issue she is having right now I am happy about that. It will do her good. So I have time to comment. Last night I had some unexpected free time too.

    I have also in recent weeks been reading up on zombie attacks, commenting on dreams, taking care of a mess of kittens, cooking, cleaning, getting my teeth cleaned, following the continuing Dwight Howard fiasco (with a certain level of schadenfreude), playing with my daughter, teaching my daughter (although the last two are synonymous at her age), going on little day trips with the family, contesting an estate, fighting with lawyers, following various chess tournaments when time and energy allowed, and on and on. Some of that has made me angry, some of it has made me very happy, and most if it has just been stuff that needed to be done. (Cleaning the toilets doesn’t warrant much of a response other than I wish someone else were doing it.)

    So spare me the CONCERN TROLL about my mental health, ’cause this ain’t my whole life. And try looking up some proper citations next time you want to call me a liar, fuck-face. Better still, look them up AND READ THEM first.

  • Icepick Link

    As I said, the sickness unto death.

    Yes, Sam, because I should be happy about being called a racist by Reynolds every other Tuesday, and getting called a liar by you when you didn’t even bother to READ THE SPEECH is something else I should be happy go lucky about. You don’t even have the decency to admit that you just got caught doing it. What a pair of turds.

  • All I can say is I spent an entire year teaching myself the basic science underpinning global warming theory, and I’m convinced.

    A year? Really? You do know then that the models are giant simulations of our atmosphere and that they depend on lots and lots of variables. If you are going to complain about models with lots of variables…there you go. They make macro-econometric models and macro simulations look like simplistic kids toys.

  • jan Link

    Icepick

    I don’t always agree with you. And, sometimes don’t even understand some of the rationales for your statements. However, I think you are brutally honest, and an expressive writer, running circles around the esteemed and well-heeled author who posts here. Also, whether you do little or big things in your life, what matters is that you do something. From the list you posted, I would say that you are involved with a variety of basic, daily activities/obligations/chores/past times that I can totally relate to, including the cleaning and arguing with lawyers about estates.

    Anyway, bottom line is that I take an interest reading your views, whether they are mine or not. Kudos to you!

    Also, playing with your daughter is important. They grow up, and then you miss the good old days of the 2 year old monster walk, carrying them on your hip, playing games or reading to or with them.

  • Icepick Link

    They grow up, and then you miss the good old days of the 2 year old monster walk….

    Lordy, how they grow! We miss our little baby! But she’s all grown up, and now she’s a “dinosaur rex” (her phrasing for tyranosauri) digging for treasure with her claws on our bed! Which is a surprise because most of the time she is a monkey swinging from the ceiling fans. (To DCS: That last part is a joke. Mostly.) I’m thinking she can win Ninja Warrior/Sasuke around the age of five or six at this rate.

    Everyone tells you how fast they grow, but unless you’ve been through it I don’t know that you can believe it. Really, just a couple of months ago she was this tiny little baby that couldn’t even role over, and now she scampers up ladders more easily than I do. (This at the play ground – I’m careful to not leave any ladders in her range at the house.)

    The most amazing part, though, is how brilliant she is. I’m not making any claims that she is more brilliant than any other child her age, as I have no way to really compare them (observations at the playground and library and such are inconclusive – plus I’m focused on my own little charmer/beastling) and wouldn’t care to if I could. (I’m not a cognitive development researcher.) But dang, it is hard, demanding work being a baby and then a toddler. I really didn’t appreciate how hard the little ones work just getting through the day, all while their bodies make tremendous investments in physical growth. Wow….

  • steve Link

    “Cheaper energy will help the economy more than the jobs created building the pipeline. ”

    Oil is fungible. The profits from the pipeline go to TransCanada. We dont really benefit from the pipeline much more than any other country, other than the few hundred jobs it does create. If we are going to take the risk, we should minimize it.

    Steve

  • Icepick Link

    In other words, you want to outsource what jobs we could get from it, including the value we could get from having it flow through our country and our refineries? (I’ll also note that the Chinese seem to be hot and heavy to do a deal with the Canadians. Perhaps they have a different feeling about the fungiblity of oil than you do.)

    Also, when did you Dems become such big fans of energy dependence for the US? Surely it is better to be dependent on Canada, easily invaded by tourists in a pinch, than to be dependent on the Chavezs and oil sheiks of the world.

    And Sam, I am waiting for your answers to my questions about inviolable property rights. Not that I expect any forthcoming – too busy trying to psychoanalyze me, I guess.

  • TastyBits Link

    @Icepick

    RE: Libya
    The President got dragged into Libya by the Europeans. The Europeans were worried about Gaddafi destroying the oil field infrastructure similar to Saddam. If Syria had oil, Europe would have dragged the President into it.

    RE: Property Rights
    Eminent Domain should never be used to transfer private property to another private entity. If the property is needed for the “greater good”, it should be owned by the government. I am not familiar with particulars of the Keystone pipeline issue, but they can route around any reluctant property owners.

    A new highway would be an appropriate use of Eminent Domain, but as you noted, it does affect more property indirectly. I would expect the politicians to purchase cheap land, and sell it for the highway.

    RE: Bullshit
    I agree. I am tired of hearing my betters spout crap about things they know nothing about. I think that Romney will be a little better than Obama, but the Republicans are not going to roll-back most of what Obama has implemented. To politicians, bipartisanship means splitting money and power 60-40%.

    RE: Comment Reactions
    The emotional reactions to your comments is due to your writing style. The structure creates a cadence which transmits passion, and in an effort to calm you down, condensation results.

    “Proud Mary keep on burnin'”
    – CCR

  • jan Link

    Icepick

    You sound like a caring and receptive father. Your daughter is a lucky little girl! I agree about the baby years. Their bodies are on a fast track to get big and capable enough to explore the universe. Reading your comments had me relive some of our own parenting years when our son was a little guy on the go, 24/7. I think kids are much more intelligent than we give them credit for too.

  • Icepick Link

    You’re not the only unemployed guy in the country, they don’t all turn into rage-o-holics.

    How many of them do you know personally? I meet with a few dozen of them every month. There’s a lot of rage out there, and you’ve got no clue how that works living in Marin County drinking expensive swill and gazing at the Bay. The rage masks the fear for some of them, for others they’re just burned out and don’t have anything else left. The lucky few have gotten old enough to start collecting SS and Medicare and don’t care enough to get outraged anymore.

    I’m in a great spot, actually. I am truly independently poor. I OWN my house. No mortgage. I own my cars. My wife got a new job several months ago and we can now cover our expenses. (She’s still my wife! – divorce followed LTUE for a lot of people in my tribe. People married 30 years and they couldn’t handle the strain of financial ruin.) Life isn’t easy (mostly because we live in fear of any kind of emergency, which will wipe us out), but life is much improved. It would be good if I could find a part-time job with exactly the right hours, but it is more important now that I be home to engage with the little one. (Besides, my experience and that of all the LTUEs I know is that employers just don’t want to hire LTUEs – it isn’t worth the risk from their perspective. And I don’t blame them.)

    But you wouldn’t understand these concerns, and you clearly don’t understand why I find the incompetence of your party and Drew’s party so maddening. People are being wasted in their generations, en mass, and you think it is a fun little game for your bullshit cries of “Racist!” and “Homophobe!” I’ll at least give Drew this tiny bit of credit: He does seem to understand that there’s a heep-big load of misery out here, and not just for the hair dresser who can’t marry his latest boyfriend.

    But please, tell me something else about something you don’t know anything about. It will be just like when you were explaining to me about how insurance companies work, having no idea how any of that worked either. Paying a premium gives you no insight into the business workings. Having had to look for work 30 years ago doesn’t tell you a goddamned thing about being one of millions of people out of work for YEARS in this day and age. You’ve got no clue, and you are too stupid to listen to what those with experience have to tell you.

    As for food stamps – my discontent on that front is obviously above your comprehension level. I’ve made it clear that I don’t blame people for committing fraud to get SSDI. Some of them are just crooks (see Quartavious Davis), but most of them are simply desperate to keep body and soul together. (Some, including two friends, shockingly are actually disabled!) There’s probably more fraud with food stamps, but again, people are desperate. (See above regarding all the UE people I meet every month.) My outrage is with a President and a party that thinks this is an acceptable result for the economy. (“The private sector is doing fine.” “Recovery summer!” et cetera.) These programs are soul crushing for free people, and they erode self-worth*. This is not acceptable, and the fact that people like you think it is as long as your team wins is outrageous. (Clue for the clueless: Thus the outrage!)

    This President has no plan to get us out of this mess, and seems to want to keep us in it. Romney has a few good ideas (mostly of a de minimis nature), but mostly that is because he is looking to help the investor class. I haven’t heard much from him that makes me believe he is really going to push for meaningful tax reform, regulatory reform, entitlement reform, healthcare reform, et cetera. Mostly I am hearing campaign pablum, not any real commitment. If he were serious about these issues he would be pushing his own party’s agenda hard, so as to force the hands of people like Boehner and McConnell. He isn’t doing that. He’s playing to win for winning’s sake. A pox on his house too.

    As for what I believe in – I’ve covered that before. Not that you would bother to read it. Not that you wouldn’t simply call me a racist again. You only believe in spending as much as possible to make up for your guilt about being a dick to Bob-in-a-Bag all those years ago. And you’ve got no clue what it is like to live amongst the ruin of this economy.

    * I will note that every month when I meet with the other LTUEs and UEs, the topic of food banks and private charities come up. Lots of praise for these groups. Pretty much nothing but contempt for the government programs even when needed and utilized. This is because the government programs treat people like dirt. That is mostly a state-level failing blameable on the Republicans running this state, but I don’t hear anyone making great noises about the federal government either.

  • The President got dragged into Libya by the Europeans.

    I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it that way. Meanwhile, both the uproar in Mali and the Russians’ and the Chinese reactions to Syria are foreseeable consequences of the Libyan intervention.

  • Icepick Link

    I think that Romney will be a little better than Obama….

    I agree, and that is a pathetically low bar to clear.

    And great, I can calm down and be a condensate! (Also: Subtle!)

    Hey, I already get some benefit from that – condensates, I mean. I am a petrochemical mogulhettino! I’ve got some mineral rights from the old family homestead back in the mountains. I get about $30 a year off that, and only have to pay about $2.50 back in taxes! Woohoo, score one for petro-riches! Not that it makes up for the extra time I spend filing out tax forms. Hey, I wonder if I’ll get more if they start fracking the Hell out of that old mountain. Maybe I should invest that extra $27.50 in a lobbyist….

  • Icepick Link

    The President should have let the Euros do their own damned dirty work. Isn’t that why the French have a Foreign Legion?

  • jan Link

    Icepick

    Being a ‘candidate’ is like being on an obstacle course, swerving around the posts and traps in the road, in order to make it to the end of the course.

    When Romney (a political novice) ran for the Senate in the 90’s he talked more about his policy agenda, which was set upon and destroyed by Kennedy and the dems. He said he has learned not to be too open too early about these things. It’s the same reasoning he’s giving about his tax returns, as the dems are like locusts, ready to swarm on any tidbit, distort it, expand on it, anything to divert attention away from a poor record and discredit their opponents. Character assassination is what their major objective is, not having an honest engagement of relevant issues. Basically, Romney is playing the game that has been set in cement by previous contenders.

    I do think, though, that Romney will show more discernment, better business judgement and courage to make appropriate changes to amp up the economy. I think he will come up with a better replacement HC reform, loosen up inhibiting business/energy regulations, open up energy exploration and production, tinker with tax reform, probably adding fees and closing loopholes rather than raise taxes, per se.

    IMO, just getting out of the Obama anti-business syndrome will be a healthy start (like airing out a room), causing business to breathe a little easier, which will be reflected in better prospects for job creation.

    One other aspect about Romney is how many really smart people he has around him. He seems to be able to cull and collaborate with brains, not ideologues, in any industry. Even this Rob Portman, who has been bantered around as a possible VP pick, has spiked my interest. I heard him being interviewed today, and was impressed with his sharp and concise answers. He also has people like Jindal (who has experience in health care), Ayotte, Rick Snyder (who has positively impacted MI), Sandoval, Christie, McDonnell, Sean Duffy and Scott Walker in WI, Paul Ryan — the list of seriously competent R governors, senators and even some House members who have proven their mettle in their various states, much more so than most dems. I think the democratic party has gotten old, corrupt and bereft of innovative ideas. They are the same-old, same-old party, who spout muscle in being socially cool/open, plying additional votes by divisive politics, promising more entitlement programs, and expanding government dependency. For me there is no question, at the moment, in which party to put one’s faith in when the goal is to pull out of all this economic malaise we’re in.

  • TastyBits Link

    @jan

    … Romney (a political novice) …

    Romney = CEO
    CEO = hustler (operator, player, insider, scammer, etc.)
    politician = hustler

    Romney = CEO = hustler = politician

    “Don’t bogart that joint, my friend”

  • jan Link

    tastybits

    I think politics is a completely different game from being a CEO. There are simply more moving parts in politics to be aware of and counter.

    Also, from accounts I’ve read about Romney (from people who worked with him) his big thing was practicing ‘integrity’ in business matters, expecting it to be used by his employees as well.

    This trait kind of jives with his adherance to religious values, as well as numerous anecdotal stories that have floated around about below the radar acts of kindness.

  • TastyBits Link

    @Michael Reynolds


    In fact, I have a brand-new conspiracy theory on Romney’s taxes. Here it is: He’s hiding how much he made from the Mormon church. He owes them 10%, and as a church official he’s undoubtedly been involved in muscling other members for money over the years. So what if he’d been lying to his own church?

    Yeah: no shred of evidence. But it’s the kind of thing that evil minds will contemplate when denied the facts.

    It may not apply to Romney, but I do not find it hard to believe. The number of people who will willingly part with their money is small.

    “Never get between a mother fu*@er and his money.”
    – TastyBits

  • Icepick Link

    Jan, Romney might get elected playing that game, but if he doesn’t articulate a clear vision of what he wants to accomplish he will not accomplish anything of substance. Big reform requires the buy-in (ugh – jargon) of lots of people, starting with the buy-in of a lot of voters, so that they can push their reps into actually acting out of something other than simple partisan gain. If Romney doesn’t push hard for that NOW he won’t have the political muscle to do anything important LATER.

    Obama did one thing right, and that was he pushed the idea of HC reform when he was running – it created space in which to operate. It wasn’t as important as the “Hope and Change” crap that was his tent-pole, but it was something that was there.

    When was the last time I heard Romney or one of his ads make a sustained case for tax reform, as opposed to dropping in a bullet point that taxes should be reformed? One is a consistent and powerful message for change, the other an electioneering strategy. And that is one of several things we need done. We need leadership, not gamesmanship.

    You may wonder how he can push several things at once. The idea is that when he speaks about a topic he needs to focus on THAT TOPIC ALONE. Make it all about the economy. Explain that many things are broken. And then focus on ONE THING AT A TIME. A drib of this and a drab of that all the time will lack any sort of punch. But it does allow for shifting electioneer tactics. Big deal if he can’t do anything once he gets there….

  • TastyBits Link

    @jan

    A hustler is one who tries to change your understanding of reality. This is not necessarily illegal, unethical, or immoral, but it can be. We are all hustling, but some of us are a lot better. You can substitute illusionist if you prefer.

    Romney at one time was a “novice politician”, but that time has long passed. He has been in several political campaigns, and he was the Governor of Massachusetts. If he is still a novice, he should be sitting at the kids table.

    Trying to convince someone that he is a novice politician is a hustler move. He is trying to create the illusion that he is Andy Griffith and The Beaver.

    As to his personal character, great, but I do not want a nice guy leading the country. I want someone who is going to leave me alone, and who has a spine and a set of balls. I want a President who will look Putin in the eye, and tell him to piss off. Putin has turned out two Presidents. Bush “looked into his soul” and fell in love. I expected Bush to start calling Putin “Daddy”. Obama got bitch slapped, and I have no doubt he was on his knees.

    Mitt Romney is a big government Republican. Much of the structure President Obama has put in place will remain. It will be changed to achieve Romney and big government Republican goals. “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”

  • jan Link

    Tastybits

    I’m the one who called Romney a novice. That was not something I took from his own self-description. Perhaps he isn’t. But, he seems ‘nicer’ than Obama on the stump. However, I’ve never met the man. All I know is what I hear him say, read about him, the comments of others about him, the company he keeps and consults with, and it all seems more experienced, smarter and higher minded than his opponent.

    I like Romney’s business brain, and so many of our problems seem fiscally oriented. If he manages to become POTUS, and the R’s take the congress I think there is a good chance of more reform taking place. A big reservation I have, though, are the current republican leaders in Congress — Boehner and McConnell — who I am not impressed with, at all! They seem stilted and establishment-oriented.

    Icepick

    From what I hear, Romney’s policies will be honed in on once he gets through the Convention process and beyond. He is in a transitional stage at the moment. He doesn’t have the bully pulpit of the encumbancy, and really is only the presumptive nominee until the August convention. After that, he can use all his GE funding, and be the legitimate voicebox of the opposition. But, you, like everyone else, are looking for ‘specifics,’ which is a valid request. That was also a catchy phrase about ‘needing leadership versus gamemanship.’

    I’m tired…good night.

  • Icepick Link

    Jan, I am looking for broad, bold strokes. Details will have to be worked out later, but if he made the point, over and over again, that he believes in broad-based tax reform (I’m picking this topic as an example) that achieves X, Y and Z, then he is creating space in which to act later. But it has to be a consistent message, and he and his surrogates must hammer away at it all the time. He’s not spending much on ads now? Okay. But he is putting ads out there, he has a web-portal. He’s giving stump speeches all the time, he and his surrogates appear on TV a lot, et cetera. He’s not doing that.

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