What in the world is going on in Southern California? As best as I can tell from the reports on the Christopher Dorner story a guy who was discharged several years ago from the Los Angeles Police Department is being pursued very aggressively by the Los Angeles Police Department. The guy made some very inflammatory statements about the LAPD. Somebody killed somebody else. Could somebody explain it to me? Preferably, separating what’s known from the press releases, slants, and spin. I’d really like to know. Is this guy going around killing people? Is it a police rampage? What?
Update
This is best summary I’ve found so far but even it has room for multiple interpretations.
So far I’ve heard the police have shot three innocent people during the search. Also, according to his facebook rant, Dorner is a fan of Obama, Piers Morgan and gun control.
Yeah, I read that attributed Facebook stuff. If that’s insanity, there’s a lot of it going around. It’s not unlike what’s in the comments section at OTB every day.
Frankly, haven’t paid attention too closely because I thought it was only a matter of time before the guy killed himself.
May have already. It’s a topic of conversation here because my wife’s family is all in Southern California.
There’s also, apparently, a story going around that he’s killing Asian women. That sounds a bit confused to me since as I reckon the body count he killed one Asian-American woman and the police killed two Latinas. However, as Ice points out, even assuming that he murdered the Asian-American woman and her fiance (rather than acting in self defense, for example) and that the police officer he killed didn’t shoot first, the LAPD and he are tied in body count in this thing. That really sounds to me like there’s more going on.
Jeez, I hadn’t heard that the women the police shot had died. “To Protect and to Serve” what?!
I don’t know what’s going on, Ice. That’s why I’m asking. I’m reading things like “multiple people have been shot” or “lost their lives”, really oblique stuff. It’s hard to tell what’s happened. Or who did what to whom.
The press isn’t covering themselves in glory, that’s for sure. But I doubt they’re getting much help from the authorities either.
I didn’t realize until looking through your CNN link that Dorner was black and complaining of rampant racism on the force. The whole thing is taking on a definite James Ellroy-type vibe, especially with the burned out truck in the San Bernadino Mountains. Instead of White Jazz call it Black Funk.
According to this story, the two women have survived.
I wonder how much money Beck has set aside in his budget for law suits? ‘Cause there ain’t no way they’re not paying out for these shootings.
(I’ll note in an aside that this is an instructive case of how much safer we’d all be if only the police had firearms.)
Thanks for the correction, Ice, although it sounds more like an indictment of the LAPD’s marksmanship than lack of intent.
The shooting of the guy in the second truck happened in response to the shooting of the first truck. Here’s a story that lays out what happened, and I’ll quote some relevant parts.
Yeah, buddy, thanks for your cooperation – for letting us try to kill you by ramming your vehicle with a police cruiser, and then letting us try to finish you off with bullets! These guys should have been working for Mayor Daley at the ’68 Democratic convention!
Interesting to me is that the home the police were “protecting” is owned by a police captain with ties to the Rampart Division, although it’s not clear if he was there during the scandal years.
The more I read the more this really seems like some crazy-assed Ellroy story. All I need now is to hear that somehow Dick Contino and Lindsay Lohan were involved in a drug-crazed shootout with Mexican drug gangs and were saved (accidentally) by Dorner and the story is done!
Thanks for the correction, Ice, although it sounds more like an indictment of the LAPD’s marksmanship than lack of intent.
Yeah, witnesses claim to have heard over 20 shots, which sounds like two clips being emptied. Here in O-town and Orange County Florida the cops would have gone for second clips.
Shooting at random pickup trucks that come near homes of police captains? Sounds like a rampage to me.
Looking around, the officers were probably carrying either Glock 17 pistols (standard magazine size = 17 rounds) or Glock 19 pistols (standard magazine size = 15 rounds). However you can get different sized magazines for either, from what I’m reading.
(Gun nuts love to write about their hobby – making them just like almost every other hobbyist alive.)
Our friends from Torrance/Redondo Beach visited over Christmas break. Our polite disagreement over gun control has probably taken a more decisive break. I don’t know why or how that discussion got going; she literally won’t hurt a fly, she nets them and takes them outside to release.
Sounds like a rampage to me.
I’m not disputing that! It only fails to live up to police riot standards because they haven’t gathered enough craziness into one locale.
Now its hailing in Los Angeles, how often does that happen?
This is the biggest man-hunt in the history of the LAPD. They are scared to death of Chris Dorner. And, if you read Dorner’s long manifesto, one begins to understand more why this is the case.
Dorner may be resolute in his intentions to kill cops. However it is not the rant of a stupid, crazy man, but, only one crazed by a self-righteous indignation against what he sees as major corruption and racial misbehavior in the LAPD. He is on a mission to call attention to his grievances, and has separated himself emotionally from the acts of violence he is committing. I have to say, after reading his piece, there are parts of it that I sympathize with. As for being political in his leanings — he is more left wing than right. However, he does cross the aisle and praise people with both R and D by their names.
He seems intelligent, confident and competent in the skills of being an ex-cop/military man, priding himself in knowing the strategy of those hunting him down. He says they are employing predictable tactics to catch him, while he, on the other hand, knows every personal detail about the 40 some people and their families he is targeting, is a non-conformist, has good sniper skills, is unpredictable and like a jihadist, doesn’t care about losing his life, only “clearing his name.”
Basically, Dorner is a dangerous man, who actually may have been screwed over by the department. Chief Beck, in particular, seems to be in his sights. Dorner gave a personal message to him, saying that if Beck revealed the truth regarding the ‘bogus’ charges against him, leading to his dismissal from the police force, he would stop the killing. All Beck did was to mutter that he had looked over the brief, and thought it was mitigated correctly. Somehow, it seemed Beck could have delivered a more compromising statement, to appease the guy, giving them more time to bring this thing to an end without any more people getting hurt. However, the LAPD seems on edge to silence Dorner for not only his menacing crimes but maybe for some of the tales he might tell.
Lots of intrigue here….
Now its hailing in Los Angeles, how often does that happen?
It’s been a weird weather day. Hailing briefly in Los Angeles, Snowing in the mountains. And, all intermingled by sun, splotchy clouds, wind and cool temps. The fireplace is in use.
jan, is the rain getting up into Antelope Valley? I’m wondering if the desert will be in bloom soon.
Beats the shit out of me and I live here (i.e. it is pretty much a constant on television whenever I see one).
You mean like they want him permanently silenced? The police? No wai!!!!
I find some of his manifesto quite compelling in parts and batsh!t crazy in others. Perhaps someone will make a quiz out of it, and we categorize everybody by their shade and quantity of Dorner. I strongly disagree with this: “Dave Brubeck’s “Take Five” is the greatest piece of music ever, period.” Batsh!t crazy stuff.
I’ve started reading his manifesto. (The daughter is taking a late, and long, nap.) He brings up the Rampart Scandal and states:
So I’m wondering if the captain where the police shot up the two pick-ups was part of the Rampart crowd? (I’m assuming anyone interested will look up the Rampart scandal on their own.)
With somebody this dangerous, this would seem to be a good time to roll out the armed drones.
The shooting of innocent people will end when cops start going to jail. Anybody else would be in jail. They seem to think the badge places them above the law, and they seem to be correct. There are dead Marines and Soldiers because they were constrained from indiscriminately shooting people. I do not think it is too much to ask the same from the police.
Would anybody like to guess how these examples of L.A.’s finest act when in the shitholes of America? With assholes like these charged with protecting folks, is it any wonder why some folks may not trust the police. In some places, the police are worse than the criminals.
Would anybody like to guess how these examples of L.A.’s finest act when in the shitholes of America?
According to Dorner, they kick cuffed suspects in the face. The first meaty part of his manifesto gets into his dismissal from the department. It sounds like a lot of the things he complains about can be investigated and corroborated (or proven false) by an independent agency.
Where is Michael…I want to hear him talk about paranoia again (once his mouth is no longer full).
Seriously, anyone wonder why I am very wary of police out here in CA? A nice liberal state with rather stringent gun control.
Oh Dave. You slay me. That is standard police procedure. C’mon man.
jan you are repeating yourself you do realize that. Instead of writing corruption and racism from now on, just write LAPD. HTH.
jan, is the rain getting up into Antelope Valley? I’m wondering if the desert will be in bloom soon.
It’s raining/snow showers at the Antelope Valley Poppy Reserve — temp @ 35 degrees, going down to 32 degrees tonight. It should be a good blooming year, Ice!
According to Dorner, they kick cuffed suspects in the face. The first meaty part of his manifesto gets into his dismissal from the department. It sounds like a lot of the things he complains about can be investigated and corroborated (or proven false) by an independent agency.
According to Dorner, the person kicked in the face collaborated his story. But, it did nothing to change the outcome. The woman partner accused of this abuse was a friend of some higher up in the dept, or something. Cronyism and cover-ups are everywhere, including the police department and the government.
Again, I am not condoning what Dorner is doing. However, there does seem to be a back story to his rage.
Well, unless I win the lottery I’m going to miss it, but the MiL and SiL should get pretty scenery! And thanks for the report.
Icepick, even though I am an easy driving distance to the desert, every year I miss this event. However, the pictures of this blooming desert are spectacular, and some communities even charter buses for people to take advantage of this seasonal splash of color.
Not hard to believe, IMO.
One of the cops on the tape is heard bragging about how he beat in Thomas’ face with his maglite flash light.
I don’t think LA is much better.
The video of the incident is sickening…
Smashing His Face to Hell’: Horrific New Video Emerges of the Police Beating That Led to a Homeless Man’s Death
@icepick, the manifesto strikes me as written by someone who can be quite suggestive to adopting memories of events that vindicate his own deep sense of frustrations. I’m not sure his claims can be corroborated by comparison with a single source (most likely a victim that either originated the narrative or would be interested in adopting the narrative). A third source certainly is in order.
If we start from the proposition that he has some form of personality disorder, strongly indicated by his belief that murders will vindicate his name, then “proving” something becomes doubtful. I don’t know what the political fallout might be.
And that would be? The cops?
You talking about Dorner or cops in general, I’m losing track here. :p
PD, I get what you are saying. But he makes a few factual assertions that should be easy to check. For example the other officer testifying that he told Dorner to straighten his tie, when Dorner claims there is a picture of the incident showing that Dorner wasn’t wearing a tie. If the witness against Dorner is insisting on testifying to non-true details, it would call his testimony into question.
Other incidents as related by Dorner do NOT show Dorner in a good light, and Dorner seems oblivious to that. Sure, having other officers using the N-word in his presence would be heinous, but jumping into the back of the van to strangle them goes beyond what most people would consider a reasonable response, particularly from a police officer.
Dorner mentions that many of those on his personal shit-list have ties to the Rampart scandal. That scandal was NOT resolved very well, and an outside observer can believe that guilty officers got away with stuff. But again, were the officers he singles out truly involved? Reporters ought to be able to at least verify whether or not specific officers were at the Rampart Division in the appropriate time period and whether or not they were part of the CRASH program or brought before any disciplinary hearings.
Clearly this guy has gone over the edge a bit, and has feelings of being persecuted. However, it is possible that those feeling may be at least partially justified. The LAPD response, particularly the shoot-at-anything-that-might-contain-Dorner portion of the program, indicate that they want this matter swept under the rug with a very publicly dead Dorner.
However, if we start from the proposition that his account of events is correct and that there have been no murders—he’s just defending himself, it’s pretty different. Believing that people are out to get you can either be paranoia or a keen comprehension of the truth. It depends on whether people are actually out to get you. It’s also possible both to be paranoid and that people are out to get you.
I honestly don’t know what the truth is. I’m astonished at how poor the news coverage is.
The press is comprised of badge lickers for the most part.
There are plenty of instances where when a cop does go against another cop (e.g. kicking a schizophrenic suspect who is restrained in the face) the cop reporting the incident is ostracized and often driven from the force.
Dorner is almost surely unstable, but the reasons for his current mental state may have some basis in fact. I don’t find some of these claims all that hard to believe. In fact, I’m inclined to believe them given past observations. And given that he was a cop–i.e. he is a member of a group which often sees violence as an acceptable means to resolving problems. Clearly this may very well be a case of police culture biting the cops on their collective asses.
Naturally they’ll be embarrassed and will do what they can to cover it up.
Pffft, you are being paranoid….
Of course this should immediately raise the question of: why? Maybe the LAPD isn’t as nice and squeaky clean on this issue as they are making themselves out to be. If that is true, the former Capt. Quan will have lots of fun looking at himself in the mirror everyday.
I’m astonished at how poor the news coverage is.
News orgs have been cutting back staff, especially investigative staff, for some time now. (And I’m sure you’ve noticed that lots of national news orgs basically just regurgitate the press releases that various governmental agencies put out.) So they don’t have the staff, and now they’ve got to go back and look at a story that probably got little or no press several years ago to try and corroborate anything, and they’re probably getting the big smokescreen from the police.
It’ll take a few months of digging for the press to really get at the back story. The bad thing for Dorner is that the press, and the public, will probably lose interest before that happens. Hell, the President has just this last week realized there’s a jobs problem in the nation! Seriously, from the President on down, almost no one in this country realizes what’s going on, because they just don’t care. Dorner is going to have to rack up a big body count before the press will really focus on this.
I don’t find some of these claims all that hard to believe. In fact, I’m inclined to believe them given past observations.
Ditto. I haven’t finished his manifesto yet, but really his claims are pretty boiler plate. Nothing in them makes me go, “Oh, I never!” And that’s DISCOUNTING all the Ellroy I’ve read in the last couple of years!
Pffft, you are being paranoid….
You know, I never worry that I’m being too paranoid. I only worry that I’m not being paranoid enough.
Similarly, I never worry about being cynical, only that I’m not cynical enough.
Seriously, I’ve seen enough crap in my life (a great deal of it not directed at me) to know that a certain amount of cynicism and paranoia are warranted.
Also, I’ve observed that there is usually only a very thin veneer of civilization over most human interactions, and that violence is often lurking very close to the surface. For example, how many of the people here have discussed the fights they’ve gotten into AS ADULTS?
I honestly don’t know what the truth is. I’m astonished at how poor the news coverage is.
The news coverage has been wide and plentiful. It’s the ‘facts’ that have taken on kind of a murky guise.
The media is digging up an unstable past describing Dorner, through his ex-girlfriend words to problems denoted in his early school days . However, it seems that from the perspective of a few friends, the current behavior seems out of context to what they experienced with him.
The reasons for his conflict with the police department also seems mired down in opposite POVs based more on Dorner’s fight with police orthodoxy than any acts of dire insubordination by him.
The story of this man, though, has piqued national interest, sides are being taken, and the media is straining itself to constantly keep ahead of any breaking news, no matter how minor it is. The problem is that Dorner has inconveniently disappeared, and seems to be off the radar, despite the massive effort being put into this thing to find him. I’m beginning to think that burning his truck, at Big Bear, was nothing more than a ruse, putting all eyes in a place soon-to-be blanketed by snow, thus allowing him to quietly escape back to the city, continuing with his mayham.
Maybe, though, I am making him out to be more clever than he eventually will turn out to be….
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manhunt-ex-girlfriend-called-him-emotionally-disturbed.html
The fact that a judge denied a police officer’s request for a restraining order certainly suggests that Mr. Dorner’s request was without foundation. His girlfriend’s account seems more likely to be true. Especially in light of Dorner’s batshit manifesto. And the fact that he’s a murderer. And just a wee bit of a megalomaniac.
In his manifesto he describes himself as severely depressed. I think what we have here is a mentally disturbed man who freaked out. Not a conspiracy. Not much of anything but a depressed and troubled man who lost his job.
Does LAPD have a long record of brutality and incompetence? Yes. Since forever. Since at least the 30’s. Is it possible Mr. Dorner was wrongly terminated? Yes. Is that reason for him to threaten to murder any number of people? No. Really isn’t.
Now we just need to explain why you people are seeing black helicopters.
If Dorner’s statements about his security clearance on true, then one has to wonder why he was an officer in the Naval Reserve. For that matter, if he is really this unhinged (as opposed to wronged), then why the Hell wasn’t he screened out before he was a police officer on the street?
From Dorner’s statement on his security clearance: I had a TS/SCI clearance(Top Secret Sensitive Compartmentalized Information clearance) up until shortly after my termination with LAPD. This is the highest clearance a service member can attain other than a Yankee White TS/SCI which is only granted for those working with and around the President/Vice President of the United States.
Now I’ve got to think that there’s probably a lot of clearance levels between a Reservist company-grade officer (or whatever they call company-grade officers in the Navy) and those working with the President. So that detail sets off my bullshit detector. Perhaps Andy can weigh in on that?
Now we just need to explain why you people are seeing black helicopters.
Perhaps it’s because the police started shooting at two different vehicles that just MAY have contained Dorner without bothering to seek any other confirmation. I’m sure that 71 year-old grandmother with two slugs in the back must have looked just like Dorner, who is a very large black man.
Now we just need to explain why you people are seeing black helicopters.
I’ve never mentioned black helicopters, but police helicopters are over my neighborhood on a regular basis. (In fact, that led to Pine Hills being nicknamed Chopper City. That was the origin of that nickname, although the idiots that live here now have adopted another story that’s too stupid to relate.) The choppers are so ubiquitous that I realized this week I don’t always notice them now. At some point I suddenly realized a chopper was buzzing overhead, had been doing so for some time, and I had simply not noticed. It’s too common to make note of now.
And several times a year I have the police choppers flying low over-head at night. Nothing is quite as scary as having a chopper just over the tree line shining a spot light into your backyard. It doesn’t make one feel terribly safe. Especially given that the police have a bit of a reputation for shooting up the place.
As TB likes to point out, living in the shit-hole neighborhoods gives one a different perspective.
…
I’ll also point out a recent story of a police helicopter circling a woman in the San Bernardino Mountains and then LANDING to give her some grief over rock collecting. This happened before any of the Dorner stuff, so it was unrelated to the current insanity of the month.
From Dorner’s manifesto: I am an American by choice, I am a son, I am a brother, I am a military service member, I am a man who has lost complete faith in the system, when the system betrayed, slandered, and libeled me.
I’ve heard variations on this so many times in the last five years. I’ve probably heard “I did everything they told me to do. I did everything right. Why am I getting screwed like this?!” from probably a couple of hundred different professionals. Hell, I’ve said it myself, I’ve heard my wife say it, I’ve heard it from close friends. It’s frankly amazing that we haven’t seen more spree killers in the last few years, though there has been an outbreak of murder/suicides locally in the last year. Desperate times create desperate people.
The particulars of this guy’s (Dorner) case are interesting, but the basics are pretty standard stuff. He’s just another Broken Man. I meet them all the time these days, and pretty much am one myself. There are Broken Women out here too. Really, I’m surprised that more of us haven’t gone on spree killings. At some point, when you’ve lost everything, vengeance might be the last thing offering out any hope of satisfaction. I guess, like me, enough have managed to hold onto just enough to keep a little bit of light left in their lives.
I’ve heard variations on this so many times in the last five years. I’ve probably heard “I did everything they told me to do. I did everything right. Why am I getting screwed like this?!†from probably a couple of hundred different professionals.
Icepick,
That was an interesting last paragraph, as I’m pretty sure a lot of people can relate to it on some level.
There is so much dissatisfaction with the ‘system’ right now. Right and wrong seem to have literally changed places. What was once considered a strength is mocked, and a weakness or stigma is not only sanctioned but often glorified. The so-called laws, rules and regulations, overseeing people’s actions, are often created from rigid, stupid or politically motivated minds. And then you have a person like Dorner, railing against what he sees as a ruthlessly corrupt police department, in which he is carrying out a similarly ruthless, emotionless kind of punishment, and it does give rise to the question if there isn’t a ‘Mad Max’ breaking point, within any of us, when they are leaned on too heavily by the powers that be.
jan, he probably has slipped out of the San Bernardino Mountains, but I doubt he’ll accomplish much if he heads back into the city, even if he has the firepower he claims to have. Unlike the jihadis and other suicidal troops he admires, he doesn’t have a friendly environment to fade into. The hands of all men and women will be turned against him. And one man whose face and name are known can’t evade the authorities that long if he heads back into population centers. His best hope is to disappear into a desert, or maybe across the border. The scariest thing he could do would be to kill himself in a manner where they can’t find his body – go all DB Cooper on the authorities.
But he’s just not going to be able to accomplish much, because they know who he is. The DC Snipers got away with it as long as they did because they were unknown, and the media even helped by playing up an incorrect vehicle identification for them. (The media was reporting that white panel vans were seen in the areas of the first shootings. Well, no shit! There’s a white panel van in pretty much every location where there are two or more vehicle gathered together. Turned out the shooters were driving a blue sedan. Oops.)
Yeah, this guy won’t get to spread too much more mayhem, because the police have now indicated they’ll shoot first and ask questions later. The scariest thing for him to do is disappear.
“Black Helicopters…” Michael must be reading Dick Morris’s book.
jan, you can only give what you have in excess. You CAN give the shirt off your back. But if it is the only shirt you’ve got, you can only do it once.
Lots of us have run out of reserves of everything good and decent and worthwhile. What little kindness and charity and understanding I have left are reserved solely for family and friends. And those circles have been drawn much closer in the last few years. The only things I’ve got left in abundance are fear, and anger, and hate. And I’m more than willing to give those away freely. I’ve only got two threads holding me in check. I know many in that same boat. I know some that have been cut loose entirely. They’re older than I am, though, and have an extra 15 years or so of having the passions of youth cool in their hearts, and an extra 15 years or so of ruts carved into their daily existence. That’s what’s kept the more capable people from going on spree killings, I’m convinced of that. Age and habit.
And the young ones don’t really know what’s being taken from them, and don’t have much in the way of capabilities or capacities to begin with. Too callow. Youth and ignorance.
Dorner is in a sweet spot, though. His life is ruined, he’s old enough to know it, and young enough to burn with it. He says all he wants is a Pyrrhic or Cadmean victory. When that’s all someone has left…. Vigor and ability and nothing left to lose. The results are predictable, are they not?
It’s funny, Dorner’s politics almost completely match Reynolds! If anything, Dorner is more moderate.
@Steve V, he said that Take Five is the greatest piece of music ever. Its not even the greatest jazz ever, let alone the greatest jazz of its time; that would be Kind of Blue by Miles Davis. The whole manifesto is a crude exercise in manipulation for the Jesse James set.
@icepick, I’ll have to read the thing closer than I frankly want to, but a lot of times I observe that people’s natural tendency is to be a hero in their own life story. I think that’s kind of kewl and all; I like to think I have my own moments, but the most heroic claims appear quixotesque — the certainty of the righteousness of their cause takes on a reality of its own.
I observe that people’s natural tendency is to be a hero in their own life story. I think that’s kind of kewl and all; I like to think I have my own moments, but the most heroic claims appear quixotesque — the certainty of the righteousness of their cause takes on a reality of its own.
As we are the captains of our own destiny, the directors of our life drama, then it’s only natural that we create a life story fitting our own perimeters and realities — especially if you are more of a loner and live in your head, as this guy must have done, at least for the last 4 years or so.
Right or wrong, though, he certainly has captured the public’s attention, and has the ear of the police department.
I love you people playing at police paranoia. Have any of you ever actually dealt with cops? Anyone been in jail? Any of you actually been the victim of a serious crime? I’ve been on both sides with cops. The fact is they behaved very professionally in all situations. I agree that the police have been overly militarized as a consequence of the drug war. That’s a valid criticism. Going from that to suggestions that this murdering lunatic is a victim? Bullshit.
Ice:
Actually, they mirror yours. The politics of personal grievance. The politics of rage and paranoia, self pity and narcissism. That’s why you find him sympathetic.
@michael reynolds
I am quite familiar with cops on both sides and with prison on both sides. There is a big difference between a big city jail (Cook County, L.A. County, Orleans Parish Prison) and a small town. Also, there is a big difference between how folks in rich and poor areas are treated. The San Diego lockup is vastly different from Orleans Parish Prison. I can recommend the former, but the latter is best avoided.
If you were as disrespectful on the inside as you are on the outside, I suspect you were wearing somebody’s shower shoes with their name sewn on them.
I have never been a victim of a violent crime, but I think that has more to do with my attitude and hypervigilance. I am not a bad-ass, but I give off a vibe that I am more trouble than I am worth. I am able to pick up on this in other people, but apparently, not everybody is able to. It must be a “street thing”.
(NOTE: I have had my share of fights. I have won more than lost, but I have gotten a severe ass-kicked more than once.)
I also have a keen sense of trouble. The girl that knocked on my door at 2am may have really needed to call a cab, or her boyfriend could have been hiding. If so, the visible .45 in my hand prevented me from being a victim. I can give you many more examples.
If all the cops you have encountered have “behaved very professionally in all situations”, you were not in the rougher areas, or it was a long time ago. I would suggest you try living in or by a rough area. I am sure somebody familiar with NYC could recommend somewhere. I think you are close to Oakland, and I know there are some rough areas. I am not anti-cop. I am anti-incompetent cop, and there are too many of these.
“Back in the day”, a cop could tell the difference between a real thug and a wanna-be. It goes back to the vibe thing. You need to be able to read people. If you cannot tell the difference between a 71 year old hispanic woman and a very large black man, you are going to be shooting a lot of innocent people. A thug knows an ass beating is part of the game, but you do not disrespect them.
There are police departments and units that are thoroughly corrupt. The cops provide protection for the gangs running drugs, and some have gone into the business themselves. When one police officer murders another, you have a problem, and you can expect witnesses to be killed.
Many cops have a similar commando mentality that @Dave Schuler has written about. The have seen one too many movie, and they want to look like a bad-ass.
I have lived and played in some of the rougher areas, but I was there by choice. I do know what @Icepick is describing, but this was before helicopters became popular. This guy may be bat-shit crazy, but his story could have merit. People more knowledgeable about present day L.A. understand his complaint, but this is not proof.
I am inclined to believe the police are shooting people as a result of their everyday incompetence. I do not want to think the government is intentionally harming its citizens, and then I remember Tuskegee.
In jail? Check–small town, speeding, out of state license, spent the night in jail until my mom wired a bond
Victim of crime? Check–burglarized
Victim of violent crime? Check–I was attacked on the street. Wasn’t exactly a victim, though.
Other experience of cops? Check. College roommate’s a cop, been to many, many cop parties. Neighbors who are cops.
@michael reynolds
Also, there are others here with similar experiences. You just need to read between the lines.
TastyBits,
I liked your honestly-stated perspective. It seems to me that people who don’t like to question government largess, are also more inclined to positively generalize and exude about other appendages of government, such as a police force.
Questioning those who protect us, heal us, govern us is all a part of being a member of an empowered, well-informed society, one encouraging rather than muzzling free expressive criticism. This reminds me of the remarks delivered by Dr. Benjamin Carson @ The National Prayer Meeting, which has now gone viral on the Internet. It was a refreshing pleasure to hear someone discarding PC-speak, choosing instead to employ a reasonable, open, apolitical dialogue about the problems facing this country, absent any cow towing to the 4th branch of government he defined as “Special Interest Groups.”
Oy. Any person of color who gets up in front of more than 3 people and says he doesnt like PC (who does?) becomes a GOP favorite. Wanna bet he gets offers to run for office?
Any reason why police tend to donate to and are protected by the GOP as a general rule? Certainly saw it in Wisconsin where Walker left police unions untouched while going after teachers.
Steve
Any person of color who gets up in front of more than 3 people and says he doesnt like PC (who does?) becomes a GOP favorite. Wanna bet he gets offers to run for office?
I agree, Steve, who does like PC languaging? As for creating a stir in being potential candidate material, the knee-jerk response has been, “Why doesn’t this guy run for office?” Basically, what people are yearning for in a leader is an untainted, honest person, beholding to no one and seeking only the highest good for all the people in this country.
A follow-up post for Steve:
No sooner thought than put out there!
Ben Carson for President — the WSJ
There is no evidence that HSAs will decrease spending. I have looked. I think tithing is a great way to run a church. (Well actually, not really, but that would take too long for me to spell out. We limit our church donations to half that and put the rest elsewhere.) To run a govt? We really dont need a guy who doesnt believe in evolution or who knows what other science.
Steve
For the record, the police choppers are buzzing my neighborhood right now. It’s kind of early, though, as the sun hasn’t been down all that long.
I’m sure, though, that it’s just paranoia.
I’ll have to read the thing closer than I frankly want to, but a lot of times I observe that people’s natural tendency is to be a hero in their own life story.
Don’t bother. He definitely makes himself out to be the hero, and misses that some of his responses make him come off unhinged. Frankly, given what HE reports about his early days on the force, it makes one question what the Hell the LAPD was doing in letting him pass through to probationary status.
As for my own experiences with the police and crime: I’ve dealt with low grade police bullying when I was younger. I’ve also dealt with worse.
I was in a car accident. I got t-boned making a left turn by a car going WAY too fast. The officer that showed up at the scene of the accident happened to be a friend of the person driving the other car. One witness reported that the officer in question was grabbing me by the hair, jerking my head around and screaming at me, asking me why I tried to kill his friend. I was trapped in the car at the time, with a badly shattered leg, a broken back a bad laceration on my chin, et cetera. My brother was in the car too and banged up almost as badly. The woman driving the car that struck us had minor cuts and bruises.
I don’t talk about that much, because I don’t remember it. This was all reported by another witness at the scene of the accident, who had been two cars behind me. She stopped to offer assistance. She was the wife of a state trooper and greatly offended by what she had seen. She offered to testify if we pressed charges.
Later, at the hospital, the sheriff’s deputy in question kept interfering with doctors. He was insistent that he should arrest “that son of a bitch who tried to kill my friend”. He kept grabbing charts out of the hands of nurses and doctors until the doctors had hospital security escort him from the building. I don’t remember this, either. This was reported to me by a friend of the family, the mother of my best friend.
Ultimately we didn’t pursue it. My brother and I were too banged up to care, and I didn’t remember a thing about it. My mother was recovering from her own coma, and before long we discovered dad had cancer, which turned out to be terminal. 1988 was not a good year. Worrying about that didn’t seem like a big deal at the time. What’s another asshole cop with a Napoleon complex?
That was one experience. Another was after my mother’s home was invaded in 2008. An eyewitness ID’ed two of the home invaders. With that knowledge, the Sheriff’s Department still couldn’t manage to make an arrest. I’ve written about that before and don’t feel compelled to do so again.
My own home was burglarized a couple of months before my mom’s home got invaded. The cops made a bigger mess in the house than the thieves had. They didn’t discover anything useful then either.
So far in my life, I have had pretty much no positive interactions with the police. They’ve been more a harassing presence than one that maintains law and order. They’ve been useless at preventing crime, and they’ve been useless at mitigating crimes that have taken place.
…
Oh, and I forgot the funniest thing these professionals have done! The day my father died we had to call the police to do a cursory investigation. As they were leaving, one of the officers (I can’t remember if this was the OPD or Sheriff’s office) looked at me and said “Have a nice day!” To his credit, he at least realized what he had said and winced before fleeing the scene.
Anyway, I don’t really recall any positive experiences with the police.
One last thing:
Reynolds is convinced the LAPD are acting with extreme professionalism. If that’s the case, why did they shoot up two pick-up trucks without warning and without determining that the pick-up trucks contained actual, you know, threats? Not very professional.
Reynolds, sure a lot of stuff is personal to me. But we’re also between three and four million jobs SHORT of where we were in December of 2007, when the recession officially started. (I’m not sure how short at the moment, because I didn’t bother looking at the last BLS report. After the December report we were around 3,947,000 jobs short.)
Over five years after the start of the recession, and we’re still far short of where we were then. We’ve been in a recovery for over three and a half years. And we still haven’t hit the old level of employment. And a lot of the jobs that have been added in the meantime have been part-time. And we have a larger working age population.
My situation is personal. But we’re far short of where we were for millions of others too. I work with some of them too, and I think of them. The other day I commented on another thread about a study showing that half of the Millennials with jobs only have part-time work, even though many of them have college degrees. I worry about that because it is the destruction of young potential.
Yeah, I take a lot of it personally, but I worry about wide spread economic destruction, which destruction is supported by a bevy of stats.
You, on the other hand, are crowing about how wonderful things are because you just made a cool $300,000.
Now, who’s the narcissist?
Look up the story of Ed Mason, former Orange County Commissioner to see how professional those Orange County Sheriff’s Deputies can be. Short version:
Ed Mason was a young up and comer in local politics. He got into a domestic dispute with his wife. The cops were called and took him to their HQ. They took away the pistol he had with him. They talked to him, decided he was okay, and let him go sans pistol. So he walked into the squad room, asked a deputy for the DEPUTY’S pistol, received it, went home and killed his wife.
The guys responsible for this travesty at the Sheriff’s office went on to bigger and better things, including Sheriff Lawson Lamar, who became the District Nine State’s Attorney for a LONG time. He just lost office last year. No one suffered any negative consequences from giving a violent man a police pistol. Well, except Diane Mason of course. Ed Mason served 33 MONTHS of a five year sentence. It pays to have connections.
…
Another local case of note from more recent times would be the head of the Windermere PD helping cover up that one of his buddies was a child molester. The child molester finally got exposed, along with the corrupt Windermere PD, when one of the molested children turned out to have a parent with more clout than the molester.
…
Sanford PD has had it’s own problems, and I don’t mean the Trayvon Marton/George Zimmerman case. I mean the case in which a police officer’s son was caught beating up some random homeless dude. Because of his connections he initially got off with no problem. But someone had taped the event and eventually it got out what had happened.
…
I came of age in Florida during the years of the Cocaine Cowboys. Up here in Central Florida we got some blowback, but the worst was of course in South Florida. I think everyone has their favorite stories about corrupt police from back then. My favorite is about a class of Miami police cadets. Within about five years of graduation all of those cadets were either dead or in jail on corruption charges.
Yeah, always professional.
My big concern at the moment is that Dorner looks like a chubbier-faced LL Cool J. Cool James, either keep a low profile or, better still, a very high profile until this guy is caught/killed!
Andy:
It was indeed a long time ago, and things may have changed. I spent 11 days in two jails, one rather downscale, one quite nice, aside from the fact that I was in there with a guy who’d killed a woman and cut off her fingers. Weirder still, he was a dead ringer for Paul Newman. He even had the voice.
I was decidedly not rich in those days, but was still more of a smart ass than was probably sensible. I made a joke to Paul Newman at one point about dessert. “Maybe they’ll serve ladyfingers.” Hah hah. It still amazes me no one killed me. But they were all distracted by trying to dig a hole through the cinderblocks with a piece of metal we’d pried off a bunk.
Ah, good times, good times.
On the receiving end my wife was pistol-whipped as part of a rape attempt. I was also held up at gunpoint while managing a 24 hour restaurant.
I was also attacked by a guy who wanted to kill me for being a smart-ass, (Imagine that!) but he fortunately rammed his arm through a piece of reinforced glass before I could stab him with a 14 inch chef’s knife I had concealed behind a door.
I also pulled a knife (well, a steak knife) on a violent customer once, in Oakland. Exact quote from Oakland cop: “You didn’t pull a knife, right? Because you can’t pull a knife on an unarmed man, even if he’s crazy. So you didn’t. Right?” No, officer, I certainly did not.
A couple incidents of getting between women and their attackers. Speeding tickets, reckless driving (just extra speeding, really.) No doubt some other stuff I’ve forgotten.
I’ve never in any of that had any beef with the cops. I would tell you if I had. They’ve always been professional to me, and none of those run-ins happened when I was well-to-do. Of course they all happened while I was white. And I’ve never been belligerent. When they pull me over for speeding I just say, “Yep, you got me.” And on my one felony arrest I was polite and uncooperative. No threats, no beat-down, and the separate cop who booked me into jail chatted with me about antiques of all things. I was tangentially in the business in those days and he wanted a Mission oak rolltop desk.
Incidentally, no hassles with the jail population, though I’m sure that would have changed if I’d gone to the joint. I was young and blond.
Ice:
Yeah, which is why I wrote:
You wrote:
It’s personal to me, too. You think poor and scared and desperate was something that happened to me a long time ago? It was, chronologically. And time takes some of the edge off it. But I still remember sleeping under a freeway overpass. And I remember sitting at a pay phone (back before cells) being eaten by mosquitoes hour after hour hoping someone would call me back on an application for some piece of shit job. I remember walking the length of Ocean City, Maryland carrying my shoes because they hurt too much to wear and I couldn’t afford 60 cents for the bus as I went from restaurant to restaurant looking for a job. I remember apartments that smelled of vomit and baby diapers. I remember roaches. I remember all the tricks for avoiding bill collectors. (Oh, Reynolds? Yeah, I think he’s out of the country.)
I’m not Drew. I grew up in trailer parks on bayous in the panhandle of Florida when my dad was an E4. Remember: I’m the guy here without the college degree, or the high school diploma. The one place where you’ve got me beat in the poverty drama is that you’re unemployed with a kid. I avoided that by having kids late in life. I think that must be a stab in the guts. That’s a special kind of scared.
Los Angeles police will reopen investigation into firing of ex-cop suspected in three slayings
There must be some heat coming down on Charlie Beck for him to take this step, after already saying he had looked over the case and felt it was mitigated properly.
Also, in this same LAT piece, apparently Dorner’s truck had a broken axle, and weapons were found inside. So, any speculation that he was clever enough to have planted the burned truck as a ploy, was probably way wrong… and the disabled truck probably disabled some of Dorner’s plans as well, if he wasn’t able to tote all his guns along with him.
That’s a special kind of scared.
Wait, am I a preening narcissist or a scared parent worried about my child’s fate? It’s hard to keep it straight.
The fact is they behaved very professionally in all situations.
So are you claiming the cops are pros, or that they’re not pros? At the moment the LAPD seems to be more a danger to the general public than is Dorner. A 71 year-old Hispanic grandmother looks so much like a hulking black man that they need to put two bullets in her back just to be safe? Good stuff!
In my view police are neither better nor worse than the rest of us, if the rest of us carried guns and had the chore of arresting people for a variety of infractions, large and small.
I do have one amusing story. I was driving at a prudent and legal speed along a street not far from my office at the time. A car passed me at high speed. Shortly thereafter a police car at the side of the road put on its flashers and pulled me over. The officer, late 50s or early 60s, gave me a ticket for speeding which I emphatically wasn’t doing. I just meekly accepted the ticket.
I came back the next day to the same place that the police car had been sitting. In the car was the same officer, sound asleep.
I appeared on my court date, dressed in a three-piece suit, and explained to the judge what had happened. The police officer had not appeared and the charge was dismissed.
I might add that my experience with police officers in social situations, especially social situations that are mostly police officers, is that most officers divide the world into two brackets: us (police officers) and them (criminals or potential criminals).
I think that abuse of power goes with the job of being a police officer. It’s inevitable. In most cases on most days police are as Michael has described them. But there are some cases on some days that are different. And some officers that are different.
Ice:
Because narcissists don’t also have feelings? Of course they do. So it’s not either/or. It could be both of the above. Maybe this will surprise you, but people are not numbers. They are complicated. Even out and out psychopaths (no, Mr. Misread, I’m not calling you a psychopath) may have genuine feelings. No one ever in all of history has had just a single motive.
You are aware now, since I reminded you, that I agreed LAPD had a bad reputation. That fact notwithstanding, on occasions when I’ve had dealings with cops – not LAPD, incidentally – I was well-treated. Do you see inconsistency there? It can be true that generally service sucks at Best Buy, and true that Best Buy is going down the tubes, and yet be true that when I’ve been to Best Buy I was well-treated.
I’d guess more generally that most people go their entire lives without having a bad experience with a cop — if they’re white. But hey, let’s not bring that up because you don’t think racism exists, right?
In my view police are neither better nor worse than the rest of us…
It’s the kind of job, though, that lends a person status, power and legitimate authority to ‘call the shots’ over other human beings. If such a person is honest, capable and genuinely has the interest of others at heart, then they probably serve an individual’s interest well. But, if they consider the power given them as a shield from self-accountability, explanations, decent actions, then lots can go askew.
Police officers are one such group. Actually, most first responders are out and front and become leaders and authority figures in times of crisis — firemen, medical personal (especially doctors). For instance, how many people go to doctors and passively accept treatments, without asking a question?
Government officials are another group. This is especially true now with central government getting bigger and bigger, and bent on controlling more and more elements of a person’s life. When such power incrementally gets larger over time, people shift over to being more compliant and accepting of higher-up dominance. Such a shift, IMO, tends to produce a aura of invincibility in some, opening the door to less transparency and oversight at the top, cover-ups, and more abuses at the bottom.
I think examples, in current day government, are the subtle and somewhat secret expansion of the drone program, recently called out loosely by a lib (Tina Brown) saying, “this might be cause for impeachment if it had happened under Bush.” Another glaring one is the Benghazi muddle — where there appears to be so much obfuscation, delay, lies, contrary information, incorrect statements — and, no one at the top has been held accountable. What about the Bob Menendez travesty, lew’s Cayman Island holdings (when so much was made out of Romney’s), the reckless spending of green energy funds, many to Presidential donors and bundlers, at taxpayer’s expense, or the Guru of Global Warming and anti fossil fuel ex-VP getting rich off a sale to a dubious company from an oil-rich ME country?
Reynolds, you’ve been decrying the paranoia of those of us who don’t trust the police.
Turns out there is reason to not trust the cops. According to the LA Times, AT LEAST SEVEN police officers opened fire on the truck of Margie Carranza, 47, and her mother, Emma Hernandez, 71. Looking at a picture of the back of the truck I count over 30 bullet holes. On neighbor reports that five shots struck the front entrance of his house. Other witnesses claim over 50 shots were fired, but who can tell at this point? Depending on the weapons used (some reports state that the police have been carrying AR-15s for their guard duty), 50 shots could be well on the low end of the number of shots fired.
So does this count as police professionalism or not? They shot at two Hispanic women, instead of one six foot tall 270 pound black man, who were in the wrong make and model of vehicle that was also the wrong color. I can forgive them getting the color wrong because of nighttime, but they got the number of suspects wrong, the ethnicity wrong, the sex wrong, the height wrong , the weight wrong, the make of vehicle wrong and the model of vehicle wrong. Plus, the “dangerous suspects” were armed with newspapers not firearms. Plus all indications are that the police did NOT identify themselves, and their discharges put civilians (other than the two they were shooting at) in jeopardy. This reeks of the police having shoot to kill orders, as well as kill on sight orders.
But please, tell me again how much we should trust the police.
Sorry, I forgot the link to the LA Times story.
Also, I should mention the reason I don’t remember the cop giving me grief is because I also had a severe concussion. I had two or three days of memory wiped by the experience. I don’t recommend it.
A million dollar reward now for this rogue cop, and he is supposedly ‘chased by a drone.’ I can’t remember this kind of anxiety over anyone except maybe OBL!
Speaking of other great things going on in California:
STATE LACKS DOCTORS TO MEET DEMAND OF NATIONAL HEALTHCARE LAW
Lawmakers are working on proposals that would enable physician assistants, nurse practitioners, optometrists and pharmacists to diagnose, treat and manage some illnesses.
Naturally, the doctor cartel is not pleased by this development.
That’s really no surprise, Ice. Anybody who knew anything about the healthcare system (including me) warned that there weren’t enough physicians for an expansion of services. It required ideological blinders not to believe that the first order of business, if you wanted to expand services, was a sharp increase in the number of billets in medical school, something the practice of medicine has been loth to do for a century. An increase in the number of GPs (as opposed to specialists) would have been nice, too.
I’m not surprised. Perhaps I should have added an irony tag, or a “Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!” link.
What’s interesting is that the nation’s leaders do seem surprised.
Most middle-middle income and above do not have the same experience as many on the lower end, and it is mostly limited to large urban areas with a large amount of crime. There is a racial component, and a black/brown person will have a different experience from a white person.
There have been cases of police officers ordering a “hit” on police who complain to Internal Affairs. It seems inconceivable to many people, but it does happen.
And with that, no more Reynolds in this thread. That is extremely unprofessional behavior…it is dangerous behavior, extremely so to the general public. All officers involved should be suspended, criminal charges should be lodged, and the DA should be taking action. If convicted they should be fired.
Of course none of that will ever happen….because they are cops.
But everyone, Michael is an adult, so you should listen to him.