Looking Backwards

I seem to be in a more than usually reflective mood today. In my life there has been an enormous amount of social change. Whatever you may think or read to the contrary blacks (we used to call them “colored people”) are no longer relegated to the back of the bus.

The United States has gone from a country that was 85% people of primarily European descent to 65%. Its population has nearly tripled, from 130 million to more than 330 million. 8% of the people had been foreign-born; now more than 14% are.

The likelihood not just of engaging in sex prior to marriage but having had multiple partners before marriage has increased enormously. The percentage of children born to parents who weren’t married has gone from 5% to 40%. Women working full-time jobs has gone from being a phenomenon of the poor to being not only expected but necessary. The openness of the professions to women has increased considerably.

Not only is marriage no longer between a man and a woman but we’re not even sure what men and women are.

I think it’s obvious that the nature and pace of social change is disruptive. I don’t think the society has really adapted to the change in sex roles impelled by the change in the role of women.

Here’s my question. Can a society exist without norms? I think we’re being pushed in that direction. I doubt that it can. I think that what Chesterton said holds: “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing. They then become capable of believing in anything” and applies to social norms as well.

18 comments… add one
  • Andy Link

    I’ve been catching up on Mike Duncan’s “Revolutions” podcast series and he’s now in the epilogues, which sum up a lot of the themes and compare social revolutions with political revolutions.

    The changes you describe are a social revolution that is still playing out. At some point a new status quo will develop but I don’t think we are there yet. The US is either fortunate or wise that we can have social revolution without political revolution

  • steve Link

    Actually, marriage is still between a man and a woman most of the time. The fact that gays can marry doesnt change anything about marriage between a man and a woman. The huge majority of us know if we are a man or woman so that norm hasn’t really changed. A very tiny percentage of people have gender dysphoria and we spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time and effort on it.

    What has changed is that marriage is now optional or is a serial event. It is a lot easier to blame its problems on the gays. You are correct that we still haven’t figured out how to cope with women working, especially in the sense of their having a career but that was always going to take a while. My observation is that it is going pretty well. I see the young guys much more involved in child care than guys my age were. The big exception is actually the single parent household. We suck at that.

    So I would say that while there are changes we spend way too much time listening to efforts trying to scare us about changes that largely dont exist or are rare and not that much focus on the bigger changes. Fortunately those are going ok for the most part.

    Steve

  • I don’t think it’s going that well, steve. My gauges are the large number of disaffected, aimless young men and that, while men may be more involved in child care, I see no signs that women are relinquishing control of it. In other words, it’s a façade.

  • bob sykes Link

    The fertility rate is below replacement everywhere except sub-Saharan Africa. White and East Asian populations are actually declining everywhere. In several European countries the birth rate is half replacement, and abandoned villages litter the country side in Spain, Italy, and Germany. In East Germany, some villages are now occupied by feral and wild animals, even wolves.

    Clearly, modern economies are anti-human.

    Ancient Rome went went through a depopulation cycle, too, and never recovered. The West is a dead, stinking corpse. Perhaps Russia will be the Ark for Western culture, or maybe not.

    The EU is guaranteed to be overrun, and the native populations will be replaced. It happened to the Western Hunter Gatherers, to the Anatolian farmers who replaced them, to the Celts who replaced the farmers, and now the Germanic peoples who conquered Europe.

    Evolution, both biological and cultural, has no preferred direction. Teihard de Chardin was wrong, unfortunately.

  • Drew Link

    “…and we spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time and effort on it.”

    I think that’s an understatement to the point of being a false portrayal. Our education system is spending valuable hours on the subject, especially wrt children at ridiculously young ages. I know you will deny that, but look at the uproar in parent-school board meetings over curricula and school activities. Corporations government are spending large amounts of unproductive hours on the topic. For what utility?

    “The big exception is actually the single parent household.”

    That’s kind of like saying we are doing pretty well with handling fatalities due to corona class viruses like the common cold. The big exception is SARS-CoV-2.

  • Drew Link

    ” Can a society exist without norms?”

    No. Because changes in degree often become changes in kind.

  • William Link

    To your question I would say a society can not function without norms. What we face today is having a small group of non representative people dictating a new set of norms which are transformative. So my question is, can a society function when the norms and penalties for non normative behaviours directly confront and refute the norms of the wide majority? That is can a society function without shared norms?

  • steve Link

    ” Our education system is spending valuable hours on the subject, especially wrt children at ridiculously young ages.”

    A lot of schools also spent a lot of time passing rules and laws against kitty litter in schools and there is no reported case of anyone using litter in a school. This is mostly made-up stuff by the right wing media.

    ” My gauges are the large number of disaffected, aimless young men and that, while men may be more involved in child care, I see no signs that women are relinquishing control of it.”

    Besides child care they are also splitting home chores. You are correct that push come to shove it is the woman who is still mostly expected to make career sacrifices if needed when the kids get sick or a move is needed to get better schooling.

    As to the disaffected men much of that has to do with changes in the job market and fewer manual labor jobs, or at least ones they want. A lot of it is bad parenting. And some of it is due to women. Men now have to compete with women for some of the same jobs that they did not have to compete for in the past. Turns out that a lot of men are pussies when it comes to competition. Lots of losers out there. A lot of these same losers are also the ones who have 3 or 4 kids and never engage in helping to raise the kids or provide a positive role model. While that means you are still a great candidate for the US Senate there arent that many of those jobs available and only one party approves, nay extols, that kind of behavior.

    Anyway, my broader point remains. If you turn off the TV and the media that are pushing narratives none of these new “norms” affect the huge majority of us in our day to day life.

    Steve

  • Grey Shambler Link

    It is absolutely the Welfare State which makes the dissolution of social norms possible.
    Every one today believes government benefits will be maintained or continue to expand.
    What if that’s not the case?
    Can the social rainbow of choices support life without federal life support?

  • As to the disaffected men much of that has to do with changes in the job market and fewer manual labor jobs, or at least ones they want. A lot of it is bad parenting. And some of it is due to women. Men now have to compete with women for some of the same jobs that they did not have to compete for in the past.

    Note that I am not trying to assign blame—just pointing out something that is clearly happening. The disaffection goes beyond employment. At this point men are basically sperm donors. Worse, actually. Men can be compelled to support children they have no role in rearing. Something between a quarter and a third of all children are being reared solely by women. That is tremendously different from 50 years ago.

    Gender roles is not the only stressor today. I listed a small number of others. There are many. Today there are people pressing for polygamy, polyamory, legalized incest, legalized bestiality, and every other imaginable form of sexual activity. People are trying to marry themselves or their cats.

  • What if that’s not the case?

    What if California has a $75 billion revenue shortfall? (that seems to be a possibility) That’s something I plan to write about. I don’t think that any state including California and Illinois should receive a federal bailout without being taken into a sort of receivership and the state’s constitution invalidated.

  • Drew Link

    It’s not right wing media, Steve. Pictures don’t lie. However, it is obviously covered up by the media you watch.

  • It’s as I’ve been saying—everybody has their own facts nowadays.

  • steve Link

    Dave- You actually know a lot of people who want to legalize incest of bestiality? I dont know any. Have never even heard it talked about. I dont even know someone who knows someone.

    “People are trying to marry themselves or their cats.”

    Who? You know any? Its a big world. I have no doubt there are a handful of people wanting to do weird stuff, and I know where to go if I want to read about it or see pictures (because people use picture to lie all of the time). Fox and the other right wing media will have it. But a few dozen people dont represent the whole country or even very much of it.

    Anyway, just out of curiosity, how is your life changed because a few people want to marry a cat? How would it change if it happened for that matter? Would you treat your wife differently?

    Steve

  • how is your life changed because a few people want to marry a cat?

    It redefines marriage into something it has never been and that devalues my own life and choices. It injures me because it’s contrary to what I believe and those who support that aren’t content to quietly live out their dreams; they want to compel me to support their choices, too.

    Would you treat your wife differently?

    No but we would be treated differently. We would be treated the same as someone who married their cat.

  • Andy Link

    “What if California has a $75 billion revenue shortfall? (that seems to be a possibility) That’s something I plan to write about.”

    That’s what happens when revenue is highly dependent on a relatively small number of rich people. It increases volatility – great stock market and economy and California has a surplus of a $100 billion – no more federal stimulus, a down stock market and recession on the horizon, $75 billion shortfall.

  • Andy Link

    steve,

    Let me give you one example. From talking to the women in my family, they all agree that they want private places where there are no penises allowed – like locker rooms. But the commanding heights of the culture, controlled primarily by progressives, say that this attitude is transphobic. That’s why JK Rowling, despite being liberal on just about every issue, is hated as a TERF.

    As far as men vs women (however defined), I don’t think one can chalk up the problems men are experiencing to men being “pussies” (irony alert), particularly when the culture tells men that’s how they should behave.

    You’re a doctor, what is your opinion on the increased medicalization of ADD/ADHD among boys?

    I’d also suggest Richard Reeve’s new book (or at least listen to interviews about it): “Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why it Matters and What To Do About It”

    Finally, as far as education goes, this is a pretty interesting chart on a number of levels. There is a weird blip for computer science, but overall the pattern is pretty clear – women-dominated fields stay dominated by women, while male-dominated fields become less male-dominated.

    https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-female-shares-of-ba-degrees-by-major-1971-to-2017/

    And yes, I know it is from AEI, but the data for the chart is from the DOE.

  • steve Link

    “It redefines marriage into something it has never been and that devalues my own life and choices. ”

    No it doesnt. Name one legal change it will cause for you or your wife. One way it will alter your daily life. All it does is mean that gay people will have the same legal rights that you do. Doesnt really matter if you support them or not, its a matter of law. You want to, apparently, have a law that excludes gays from the same protections you have.

    Andy- Yes, the bathroom/locker room war is the one thing where I think the trans people need to back off, though I suspect there have been men in bathrooms many times and women just didnt know. Other than that I am not seeing much and going back to the gay issue just what about having them marry really affects everyone else? I completely understand that our true historical norms were in the past very much focused on excluding certain groups from the rights and privileges, even just normal treatment, of the favored groups but I hope we are past that. Apparently not.

    I think the ADD/ADHD thing is a combo of issues. One, probably some over diagnosis. Once you have meds and treatments for stuff people go looking for it. Second, it was probably under diagnosed in the past. We handled that in the past by beating those boys and putting them into the permanent underclass or lower class manual labor jobs. They became the drunks and punks. Now we try to rescue them. Last, parents are more difficult than in the past. As a group they dont do their job as well. At the high end there are a number of parents who take advantage of the internet and their relative affluence to make sure their kids are super prepared, more than ever, but then we also have lots of parents who are overly protective of kids who need discipline and lots of parents who mostly ignore their kids.

    Steve

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